All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

[difficultpickle]

AIBU to think that is what has happened in the House of Commons this evening?

Having listened to the debate today I am truly shocked and saddened by the outcome.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Lazyjaney - Yes. Egypt is not Syria. Can you imagine how tedious it would be if every time you wanted to discuss the UK, someone talked about Spain instead, insisting that they were interchangeable Western European countries?

[Crumbledwalnuts]

Assad is insane: nothing will stop him using chemical weapons again if he can. It's doubtful he could be stopped from behaving like a maniac unless removed from power. Are we willing to do that And in the meanwhile, under western attack, the cruelty deepens?

It is wise to wait for the UN report. The Arab League could do more. The Arab League should take a mroe significant role if the United Nations fails.

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm]

I'm sure the postal workers that your wonderful FSA threw off the roof of their offices to their deaths would agree with you.

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

Things - protecting Muslims was only a side effect of getting involved in Kosovo, if it had been only Muslims it would likely be like what's now going on in Serbia with Roma being walled off and killed.

BMW6 - No country has "evolved" without outside intervention, least of all the Middle East whose current form was invented and carved up by France and Britain for their own gains which they still reap and still intervene when their ability to reap is questioned (see Iran). So many dictators are where they are by Western hands, the West allows their power because it supports the West's power. It's a bit late now to say we need to stay out of things.

[Crumbledwalnuts]

It doesn't make any difference re: Islamist militants. After Libya, thanks very much but we're going to bomb the American embassy anyway.

[Lazyjaney]

Lazyjaney - Yes. Egypt is not Syria

Outcome will be the same - talk and dream of multi party democracy, reality of fundamentalist Muslim government.

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm]

Exactly, Crumbled.

No matter what the UK does, or does not do, somewhere down the line British people WILL die because of it. On holiday abroad, or on a bus at home. Bank on it.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Things - Google doesn't bring any evidence from a credible source for that (rt doesn't count). Tell, me, what would you have the Syrian people do? Live under an increasingly inept dictatorship forever?

All opposition movement s in the country have been crushed for 40 years - this is where looking up Hama 1982 and Tadmor prison massacre help. This wasn't intended to be a violent revolution, but a peaceful uprising, the regime began the violence. What has formed in response has been via necessity rather then the luxury of advanced planning, I am sure there are many in the FSA who never imagined the situation they would be in.

I am sure there are some bad people in the FSA, as there are in all armies - does Robert Bales ring any Bales? But I support the aims of the FSA and I hope the depose the regime.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Lazy - have you not been watching the news about Egypt?

[Crumbledwalnuts]

"No matter what the UK does, or does not do, somewhere down the line British people WILL die because of it. On holiday abroad, or on a bus at home. Bank on it."

True. Though when the Arab League could step up, and Saudi Arabia, goodness knows why we get the blame. Because they're mad as mad can be, probably.

[Crumbledwalnuts]

At least one opposition group has declared its affiliation to al Qaeda. Of any weapons sent by the west - some will be used by al-Qaeda. There is no doubt of it. Even army uniforms supplied by the west in Iraq-Afghan were used to kill allied soldiers. Russian weapons will be in alQaeda hands already.

[GobbySadcase]

We've been 'sitting back' for years now. Why is everyone so fired up now?

Murder of innocents via other forms has gone on for years.

Couldn't have anything to do with oil?

I believe sitting back is the best course of action or the moment. We could easily start WW3 given the position of Russia and China.

I'm hoping we can be part of a solution that isn't military based - its not our fight.

[mummymeister]

"act in haste, repent at leisure" two wrongs don't make a right or what about equal treatment eh. why is one bonkers dictator who is suspected of killing his own people so much worse than all the others out there that we need to wade in. sure its chemical weapons but whatever is used they still end up dead. the west goes in, sorts everything out apparently yet when they leave it is more of a mess than when they started.

[ShellyBoobs]

We could easily start WW3 given the position of Russia and China

Not a chance. None whatsoever.

[ShellyBoobs]

sure its chemical weapons but whatever is used they still end up dead.

Oh well, when you put it like that we might as well just let Assad crack on with his slaughter.



Have you seen that they're now using napalm?

Children being left screaming in agony with their skin peeled off.

[hagle]

By the time we um and ah and vote (twice!), millions of people could be dead. The UN is a shambles, not fit for purpose. You need one person to say "we go in", or "we don't go in", and the results have to be on their shoulders. Committees just slow things down internably and allow any one person to shrug their shoulders and say "it wasn't my fault".

[ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm]

GoshAnne - Robert Bales - life in prison, no parole.

NOT a place in the new regime.

Google "fsa postal workers roof "

Looks at least as credible as the YouTube footage of the gas attack victims.

I think, given Assads track record, that hopes for a "peaceful uprising" were at best hopelessly optimistic.

[ShellyBoobs]

The UN is a shambles, not fit for purpose

I could not agree more, hagle.

There are only 5 permanent members and since 2 of those are Russia and China there is not a hope in hell of a UNSC resolution.

[MorphyBrown]

Who do you think sold them the weapons? Russia and China.

[fabergeegg]

Can someone tell me what is a reputable charity to send aid to Syria? I feel we all should, really.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Things - you could have said the same about Ceausescu's Romania. After all your huffing and puffing, all you have to say is that the Syrian people have no right to ask for democracy? Ridiculous.

Yes, Bales was tried and convicted, but then he is a soldier of a sovereign state, with the facilities to do so, Syria is in the midst of a civil war. My point about there being bad soldiers in all armies still stands.

Also you miss the point about YouTube footage, in the case of the postal workers it is not about what's happening, but about who has done it. Random videos only hosted by dodgy websites, aren't going to answer those questions.

[Crumbledwalnuts]

The man who ate the heart doesn't deny it.

[cantspel]

Carla del Ponte a UN human rights investigator back in may said

there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas by the rebels.


No one was interested in intervening then. This is a war with no good guys and bad guys. Just degrees of bad.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Yes and the actions of that one man were widely condemned by the rebels. One act of cannibalism does not outweigh the evils done by the regime (I haven't even mentioned the shabiha yet), nor does it deny the right of the Syrian people to fight against dictatorship.

Seriously Crumbled, is that all you have?

I'll ask you, what you think the Syrian people should have done?

[LadyBeagleEyes]

Although I hate to say it we cannot get involved in Arab conficts anymore.
The middle east have to start their own peace negotiations, there is fuck all we can do any more, nor do they want us too.