All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

[difficultpickle]

AIBU to think that is what has happened in the House of Commons this evening?

Having listened to the debate today I am truly shocked and saddened by the outcome.

I can tell you what none of these Middle East factions be they dictators or rebels will care a flying fuck for and that's women's rights and equal rights.

Sallingforth- Iran are backing the regime, not the rebels. This is a very basic fact.

Gosh you are correct.

Sally you left off the list the increased risk of islamist terror attacks on our own soil.

And here we are now with the terrorist apologists' argument.

"It's the UK's fault that terrorists attacked it; it shouldn't have gone out wearing a short skirt."

The only people to blame for acts of terrorism are terrorists.

^^
this is bollocks on so many levels

People are dying in agony in Syria. Whole generations of families. ffs I dont give a shit re. the merits of whether UK bombs Syria or not. I just want to know whether diplomatic condemnation, or aid, or boycott..is on the table here. Ive emailed my MP about this.

I dont feel I can do much..but to sit here poring over the merits of bombing and then have a sinking feeling lets keep our noses out is the general consensus (well so it seems from work colleagues) just feels sordid, and immoral. Yes the bombers are to blame..bad people are to blame for many things..does that mean we just sit by with an oh well, nothing to do with me attitude?

...does that mean we just sit by with an oh well, nothing to do with me attitude?

Exactly.

So many people just want to look the other way, or at best do some hand wringing.

What if was us and our children being slaughtered by our government as the world looked on?

If my children were being bombed by our government, I would be happier without the rest of the world joining in for a 'piece of the pie'

throwing MORE bombs will not stop the original bombs.

It is not an answer.

Full steam ahead tracing and confiscating regime assets, to get hold of all the money the al-Assads and their cronies have stashed abroad, agreement with every country possible not to allow them entry (though Mrs. al-Assad can't be kept out of the UK as she is British) and I'm sure there will be more measures that can be taken-full sanctions, etc.

But ultimately, all the power-brokers will have to talk, and that means the Security Council plus Israel, Lebanon, Saudi, Iran etc. But the factions in teh civil war will not stop killing each other unless someone makes them, which brings us full circle to who is prepared to back their political demands militarily?

What Sallying said re what would happen if Assad were taken out.

426 children killed from chemical weapons in Syria last week. As we all know that was the 14th time Assad has used chemical weapons on his own people over the last two years. Listening to John Kerry speak this afternoon and talking about the agreement not to use chemical weapons which dated back to WW1.

We all know no such thing.

If you have any proof that Assad gassed those people, share it with the US & your government. They would love to have it, I'm sure.

bisjo you certainly don't speak for me when you say 'as we all know'. What a ridiculously stupid, presumptuous thing to say.

Almost as stupid and presumptuous as thinking you can alter the course of a country for the better by dropping bombs on them.

Well added, filee

We know nothing of the sort, bisjo

This is not appeasement, there is no one suggesting that what is happening in Syria on both sides is acceptable. So stop with the crocodile quotes, it's a red herring.

The UNSC is fairly toothless because Blair and Bush made it so by steamrollering it in 2001 and again in 2003. The only way to give it it's teeth back is by letting it do what it was set up to do.

I have no doubt those of you who want to send my son, his friends and our friends off to be killed and maimed in your name will get your wish soon enough, but I for one am glad that our HofC stood up to the US's war mongering that one time.

If my government were bombing. The shit out of my country, gassing and napalming my neighbours, friends, family Wtf would I want someone else's government to come bomb my country too?

Military action shrieks to me of intellectual and diplomatic inferiority. I'm disappointed that this is all the civilised west seems to have.

Are we no better than Assad? Are we on the same level of shoot 'em up Americans? God forbid!

FFS, is that what we've sunk to?

All this talk about our place at the table..

What bollocks! Who wants to sit at a table full of halfwits whose only response is to send a missile.

Where TF are thé Arab league? Why are they sat on their useless arses doing FA to pressure Assad, or to pour their easy come money into relief and support for all those countries that are receiving syrians?

What is needed here is not the usual shit that shit men pull, and certainly not the mysogenistic and self obsessed thinking so perfected by the desert twats.

What's needed here is the Arab League to man up, the UN to issue sanctions banning any official arming of the Syrian Govt and ideally issuing an international warrant for Assad and the heads of the military to come and explain themselves/be tried for crimes against humanity.

Yes it won't be overnight, but this has been going on for 2 years, eventually he'll run out of bullets.

Lobbing a missile in is an idiots way of dealing with this, gives assad and Iran an excuse to hit back, and won't serve the people of syria.

What do the Syrian people want? That seems equally confusing. Syrians like GothAnne saying the West should intervene. Other Syrians objecting and saying how dare westerners with their colonial mindset stick their oars in.
Which is it?

Thankyou hissy that is exactly what I wish I'd had the words to write.

Holdmecloser Shelley

I did not say we were not a powerful military force. I actually said ^The UK no longer has the resources to support action in multiple arenas, or to follow pre-emptive action with sustained presence.
We cut our armed forces massively^
Comments made by Gen Houghton (CDS) reflect this view. Specifically that "Britain must lower its ?expectation? of the military power the Armed Forces will be able to deploy in future conflicts"
I assume the man knows what he is talking about?

I also said that
We have an economy which is only now showing tentative signs of recovery, and still has the potential to tip into financial disaster if mishandled. We cannot afford sustained overseas action
The use of the word sustained was not random, but intended to mean that the total cost of action cannot be afforded. Not that we could not afford a bomb or three. It means that we can't afford to spend the money required to support the action!! Frank Ledwidge (former civilian adviser to the British government in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan) estimates Britain will have spent at least £40 billion on the Afghan campaign ? a sum equivalent to hiring 5,000 new police officers or nurses and paying for their entire careers, Again, one assumes the man knows his facts.

I note the family links to HMForces Shelly, and am sure your husband was as much shocked by the cuts to our defence capability as the serving officers in my own family have been.

As a complete aside, the quote used as the thread title is usually attributed to Burke (although this is much debated - see Keyes research)
It is used frequently, where arguments of this kind arise.
Another of his quotes is worthy of reflection, although much more rarely trotted out:
Neither the few nor the many have a right to act merely by their will, in any matter connected with duty, trust, engagement, or obligation.

It would seem likely that the US and France will attack the Syrian regime on Sunday.

Why the west, the west, the west?

The Arab world will not support western intervention. The arab world is washing its hands of those Syrian children and people like GoshAnneG should think about that.

Cumbled - exactly. Qatar and Saudi have money coming out of their ears - let them sort it. It's nothing to do with us.

Yes, Saudi is scared of damaging relations with Iran, Jordan is weak and afraid of retaliation, there are many self-interested reasons why ARab countries and the Arab League are ignoring what is happening. They won't even support western intervention unequivocally with words. They won't join it and they won't back it and they'll no doubt condemn it when it all goes tits up.