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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think some people are completely lacking in compassion?

151 replies

SirBoobAlot · 29/08/2013 19:53

I was in London yesterday. Got to Victoria for the train home around 6.30pm. Heard the following announcement; "Southern are sorry to announce delays on service due to a person being hit by a train". This was repeated every minute with various destinations. Basically, no trains going South.

I finally got on a train about quarter to ten.

I was disgusted by what I heard, both waiting at the station, and then when on the train. People complaining about wanting to get home, about how 'inconvenient' it was. Several comments of "fucking jumpers" - one woman even said "Why can't they just go to Beachy Head if that's how they're feeling?".

It made me feel sick. Yes, everyone was tired. Yes, everyone wanted to get home. But someone had fucking DIED. And with it being announced every ten fucking seconds, there was no way you could not know what the delays were caused by.

I was disgusted with people. Either it was a horrific accident, and someone lost their life, or it wasn't an accident, and someone felt horrific enough to end their life. Either way, someone died. What is a few hours at a train station if you get home?

I don't get it.

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 30/08/2013 11:31

I think that there is a huge difference between "the one time a suicide interrupted my life" and those that are affected by this on a regular basis.

You do get "hardened" to it when you are affected by it on a regular basis.

LackingEnergy · 30/08/2013 12:21

A friend wrote the following and it's helped me deal with a suicide and several attempted ones family members have made....

Dealing with Suicidal People

Many years ago I worked as a volunteer for the Samaritans answering the phone at one of their call centers as well as via the internet on their website.

Before I was ever allowed to pick up the phone; I was given over a year of extensive training in supporting people

I worked three days a week for 6 months in one of their call centres

During that time I personally spoke to and dealt with the following number of calls
. 1000+ suicidal people
. 576 rape victims
. 325 kids who were bullied by their peers

Recent events have clarified something to me: People have absolutely no clue about suicide and depression; and their sheer ignorance of this complex phenomenon is a seriously dangerous thing to possess.

I am therefore writing this to educate and hopefully try to make some small difference
Why do People commit Suicide?

?Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.?

Like a set of scales when one side of the equation reaches a certain point; it will tip over

When you encounter a suicidal person be careful how you behave around them.
Your interaction will either add to their pain (and you risk tipping them over) or increasing their resources for coping (and help them get through the phase of ?acute suicidal thoughts? and live beyond the 24 hours)
Basic Suicide Statistics:

? 1 million people across the globe die by suicide each year. That?s one suicide every 40 seconds.
? More people die by suicide each year than by murder and war combined.
? It?s estimated that approximately 5% of people attempt suicide at least once in their life.
? Between 10% and 14% of the general population have suicidal thinking throughout their lifetime.
? Suicide is the second biggest cause of death worldwide among 15-19 year olds.
? 100,000 adolescents die by suicide every year.
? Suicide is estimated to be under-reported for reasons of stigma, religion and social attitudes. Many suicides are hidden among other causes of death, such as road traffic accidents and drowning.

(Source: International Association for Suicide Prevention)
The link between Bullying and Suicide

In recent years, a series of bullying-related suicides in the US and across the globe have drawn attention to the connection between bullying and suicide. Though too many adults still see bullying as "just part of being a kid," it is a serious problem that leads to many negative effects for victims, including suicide. Many people may not realize that there is also a link between being a bully and committing suicide.

The statistics on bullying and suicide are alarming:
? Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people, resulting in about 4,400 deaths per year, according to the CDC. For every suicide among young people, there are at least 100 suicide attempts. Over 14 percent of high school students have considered suicide, and almost 7 percent have attempted it.
? Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University
? A study in Britain found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying
? 10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above
? According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying

(Source: www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-?
Common myths about Suicide

Myth: You have to be mentally ill to even think about suicide.
Fact: Most people have thought of suicide from time to time and not all people who die by suicide have mental health problems at the time of death. However, many people who kill themselves do suffer with their mental health, typically to a serious degree. Sometimes it?s known about before the person?s death and sometimes not.

Myth: People who talk about suicide aren?t serious and won?t go through with it.
Fact: People who kill themselves have often told someone that they do not feel life is worth living or that they have no future. Some may have actually said they want to die. While it?s possible that someone might talk about suicide as a way of getting the attention they need, it?s vitally important to take anybody who talks about feeling suicidal seriously.

Myth: Once a person has made a serious suicide attempt, that person is unlikely to make another.
Fact: People who have tried to end their lives before are significantly more likely to eventually die by suicide than the rest of the population.

Myth: If a person is serious about killing themselves then there is nothing you can do.
Fact: Often, feeling actively suicidal is temporary, even if someone have been feeling low, anxious or struggling to cope for a long period of time. This is why getting the right kind of support at the right time is so important.

Myth: Talking about suicide is a bad idea as it may give someone the idea to try it.
Fact: Suicide can be a taboo topic in society. Often, people feeling suicidal don?t want to worry or burden anyone with how they feel and so they don?t discuss it. By asking directly about suicide you give them permission to tell you how they feel. People who have felt suicidal will often say what a huge relief it is to be able to talk about what their experiencing. Once someone starts talking they?ve got a better chance of discovering other options to suicide.

Myth: Most suicides happen in the winter months.
Fact: Suicide is more common in the spring and summer months.

Myth: People who threaten suicide are just attention seeking and shouldn?t be taken seriously.
Fact: People who threaten suicide should always be taken seriously. It may well be that they want attention in the sense of calling out for help, and giving them this attention may save their life.

Myth: People who are suicidal want to die.
Fact: The majority of people who feel suicidal do not actually want to die; they do not want to live the life they have. The distinction may seem small but is in fact very important and is why talking through other options at the right time is so vital.

(Source: www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/myths?
WARNING SIGNS

Conditions associated with increased risk of suicide

? Death or terminal illness of relative or friend.
? Divorce, separation, broken relationship, stress on family.
? Loss of health (real or imaginary).
? Loss of job, home, money, status, self-esteem, personal security.
? Alcohol or drug abuse.
? Depression. In the young depression may be masked by hyperactivity or acting out behavior. In the elderly it may be incorrectly attributed to the natural effects of aging. Depression that seems to quickly disappear for no apparent reason is cause for concern. The early stages of recovery from depression can be a high risk period. Recent studies have associated anxiety disorders with increased risk for attempted suicide.

Emotional and behavioral changes associated with suicide

? Overwhelming Pain: pain that threatens to exceed the person's pain coping capacities. Suicidal feelings are often the result of longstanding problems that have been exacerbated by recent precipitating events. The precipitating factors may be new pain or the loss of pain coping resources.
? Hopelessness: the feeling that the pain will continue or get worse; things will never get better.
? Powerlessness: the feeling that one's resources for reducing pain are exhausted.
? Feelings of worthlessness, shame, guilt, self-hatred, no one cares. Fears of losing control, harming self or others.
? Personality becomes sad, withdrawn, tired, apathetic, anxious, irritable, or prone to angry outbursts.
? Declining performance in school, work, or other activities. (Occasionally the reverse: someone who volunteers for extra duties because they need to fill up their time.)
? Social isolation; or association with a group that has different moral standards than those of the family.
? Declining interest in sex, friends, or activities previously enjoyed.
? Neglect of personal welfare, deteriorating physical appearance.
? Alterations in either direction in sleeping or eating habits.
? (Particularly in the elderly) Self-starvation, dietary mismanagement, disobeying medical instructions.
? Difficult times: holidays, anniversaries, and the first week after discharge from a hospital; just before and after diagnosis of a major illness; just before and during disciplinary proceedings. Undocumented status adds to the stress of a crisis.

Suicidal Behavior

? Previous suicide attempts, mini-attempts.
? Explicit statements of suicidal ideation or feelings.
? Development of suicidal plan, acquiring the means, rehearsal behavior, setting a time for the attempt.
? Self-inflicted injuries, such as cuts, burns, or head banging.
? Reckless behavior. (Besides suicide, other leading causes of death among young people in New York City are homicide, accidents, drug overdose, and AIDS.) Unexplained accidents among children and the elderly.
? Making out a will or giving away favorite possessions.
? Inappropriately saying goodbye.
? Verbal behavior that is ambiguous or indirect: I'm going away on a real long trip., You won't have to worry about me anymore., I want to go to sleep and never wake up., I'm so depressed, I just can't go on., Does God punish suicides?, Voices are telling me to do bad things., requests for euthanasia information, inappropriate joking, stories or essays on morbid themes.
(Source: www.metanoia.org/suicide/whattodo.htm)
What to do if you encounter or think somebody you know is suicidal

  1. Take it seriously. (I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH)
  2. Remember: suicidal behavior is a cry for help.
  3. Be willing to give and get help sooner rather than later.
  4. Listen
  5. ASK: Are you having thoughts of suicide?
  6. If the person is acutely suicidal, do not leave him alone.
  7. Urge professional help.

(Source: www.metanoia.org/suicide/whattodo.htm)

Suicide prevention is not a last minute activity. All textbooks on depression say it should be reached as soon as possible.

Unfortunately, suicidal people are afraid that trying to get help may bring them more pain: being told they are stupid, foolish, sinful, or manipulative; rejection; punishment; suspension from school or job; written records of their condition; or involuntary commitment.

You need to do everything you can to reduce pain, rather than increase or prolong it. Constructively involving yourself on the side of life as early as possible will reduce the risk of suicide.
What not to do

?Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.?

If you ridicule, mock; attack denigrate somebody you will add to their pain and by adding to their pain you will most likely tip them over the edge from contemplation to attempt and you will become a contributing factor in their attempt and nobody wants to be responsible for the death of another living being. No amount of denial; self-justification or avoidance will change that fact.
Here is some of the things to avoid saying and why

My life sucks too, but you don?t see me killing myself.
Yeah, and I?m sure you?re also suffering from a mental illness?
A lot of people think about suicide at one point or another, but if someone is actually, seriously planning on killing himself then he likely is suffering from extreme depression. If you?re not experiencing the same illness, comparing your situation to his is pointless. If you had a sore throat and somebody else was telling you to speak louder, you?d probably be understandably annoyed if he started comparing his voice to yours.
In fact, cut out the comparisons in general. I?ve learned through experience that comparing yourself to others is a dangerously unhealthy practice. Life isn?t about being better than everyone else. Life is about bettering yourself and doing what works for you.

Suicide is selfish because you?re leaving a mess for your family and friends.
It is true that suicide causes complications for those close to the victim. Serious complications, in fact. But however true that may be, saying that suicide is selfish belittles the struggle that comes with depression, and it?s outright insulting to people who are considering doing it.
People who are considering suicide wouldn?t do so for personal gain. You know that. They generally feel like their lives are too much for them to handle, and giving them a guilt trip is not going to help lessen the burden. If anything, you?re just going to make them feel worse about themselves. They already feel bad enough as is, wouldn?t you agree?

I don?t think you?re actually going to do it. You?re too smart to commit suicide.

?Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain."

That?s all it?s about.

You are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal. It doesn?t even mean that you really want to die ? it only means that you have more pain than you can cope with right now.

If I start piling weights on your shoulders, you will eventually collapse if I add enough weights? no matter how much you want to remain standing.

Willpower has nothing to do with it.

"Of course you would cheer yourself up, if you could.?

This is something more people really need to know. Those who consider suicide aren?t stupid for doing so. It?s a natural response to being overburdened.

As such, trying to tell them that it?s illogical is not going to help. Logic has nothing to do with this.

Worse yet, when you say ?You?re too smart to commit suicide,? when the person inevitably continues to contemplate suicide afterward, he?s going to think he?s stupid because of it. That will only lower his opinion of himself even further.

Samaritans Website:

www.samaritans.org/

Phone
08457 90 90 90 * (UK)
1850 60 90 90 * (ROI)

e-mail
[email protected]

LackingEnergy · 30/08/2013 12:21

That's a lot longer than I though it would be Blush

duchessandscruffy · 30/08/2013 12:51

Becoming desensitised to suicide is one of the many many reasons that I am glad that I never decided to commute into London. Obviously I know that for some people that isn't a choice, but my view is coloured somewhat as the vast majority of people who live/work in London see it as a badge of honour which makes them so much cooler than their oh so dull counterparts who stayed in the Home Counties!

Tbh I don't think there is anything wrong with silently thinking 'oh ffs' whilst at the same time acknowledging that someone has had a much worse day than you. However, talking out loud about 'jumpers' or even worse going on about it Facebook (as some of the aforementioned londonites often do) just makes you a bit of a wanker.

duchessandscruffy · 30/08/2013 12:58

Sorry, that should say the vast majority of people i know who work in London see it as a badge of honour! Blush

Ilovemyself · 30/08/2013 12:59

heysoulsister. How unprofessional as an ES worker to much such a comment.

Children do stupid things and play stupid games and tragically the consequences are awful in some cases.

I understand it is not easy telling a loved one a family member has died, but regardless of how the child died, it was still a child and your attitude quite frankly stinks.

Rinoachicken · 30/08/2013 13:05

LackingEnergy thank you for your post. Just, thank you.

Last year I had a 'major depressive episode'. The second of my life. I reached the point where I wanted to end my life.

As I commute by train twice a week, I became fixated on the train as the best way to do so.

I am sure that many of you would have considered me selfish. I have a husband and young child at home. Now that I am 'well' again it cause me great pain to think of what I did and could have put them through if I had been successful. And the rest of my family and friends also.

But I can assure you that at the time, when standing on that platform, I 100% thought that my detah was in their best interest. That I was nothign but a huge burden to them, that I was ruining their lives by being alive. I am not going to go into the details of the root cause of my depression, as quite frankly it's nobodies business but my own and I don't feel I should have to justify being so mentally unwell.

Suffice to say I had reached a point where, as lackingenergy put it earlier my 'level of pain far exceeded my ability to cope'.

Ultimately, what saved my was my faith, and my vicar, who asked me 'what about the driver'. I can honestly say the driver had never even crossed my mind. As a vicar, he has cared for the families of those who have kileld themselves, train drivers who have witnessed it, and also peopel like myself who where suicidal. He didn't say ask me the question because he thought I was being selfish. He asked me in an attempt to put a mental 'barrier' betwen me and jumping.

And it worked. the next few times I was on the platform, I was fighting a battle inside of wanting so depserately to jump, but not being able to forget the words of my vicar.

I didn't jump.

I committed myself to hospital instead.

I am now well, though still on medication. When I stand on train platforms now, I am careful to stand well away from the edge, or I go to the shop or soemthing to wait. I don't know why I feel so uneasy. I suppose it's because I came so close. I used to feel as though the rails were almost calling to me, inviting me to just step off the platform, because then everything would be over, there would be no more pain. Maybe I'm just fearful of hearing that again.

But I everyday grateful I didn't jump.

Please don't judge those who do.

Ilovemyself · 30/08/2013 13:06

LackingEnergy. What a post. If more people understood depression and the way depressed people felt the world would be a far better place.

noseymcposey · 30/08/2013 13:09

You are right OP, but I think becoming desensitised is human nature not neessarily the sign of being a wanker.

I'm biased as I'm a commuter - andI'm certainly desensitised to it to an extent. For maybe the first ten years of commuting I felt very sad for the individual and their families but really after a while it seems a bit self-indulgent to get all upset each time it happens.

I have heard some very crass comments from other commuters but to an extent I do agree it' s very selfish thing to do.

There's an element of black humour of course too..

duchessandscruffy · 30/08/2013 13:12

I don't get the 'black humour' thing?

FondantNancy · 30/08/2013 13:17

My BIL was standing at the front end of the platform and saw someone jump. Unfortunately stood beside him was a mum and two kids, aged around 6-8 years old. They all saw the whole thing and my BIL said he'll never forget the look on the kids' faces. I'm sure it's something they'll remember their whole lives.

I feel desperately sad for anyone who can't think of any solution other than throwing themselves under a train but I feel sorrier for the poor driver and anyone else who has to witness this.

LookingThroughTheFog · 30/08/2013 13:21

Thank you so very much for that, LackingEnergy. I've copied it to a word doc where I can read it slowly and carefully when my brain is in the right place.

Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.

This resonates with my experience. I actually didn't want to die at all - the thought terrified me. But I was aware that I lacked any ability to live anymore and that dying would happen very soon, and by my own hand. I was exceptionally lucky that help was at hand.

This topic was discussed about 3 weeks ago in AIBU, and I don't want to rehash everything that I said then. But the 'think of the driver' comments is pinging around my brain at the moment.

I hear 'it happens every 6 months or so when you commute in London...'

And my mind swings between wondering how we're still here when it comes to bastard mental illness?

And then I swing to the other thoughts along the lines of having some form of euthanasia for people who are suicidal. The idea of the 'Suicide booths' in Futurama sometimes strikes me as a very good idea. I could die, it would be clearly my own decision, it would be guaranteed to work, it wouldn't put anyone out (my preferred method should guarantee that the police would find me first, but as someone upthread points out - the poor police officer...). I'd no longer have to deal with the constant recurring and overwhelming pain. Could this actually be easier all round? Would that suddenly make it not-selfish? (I ask those who think it is - I think it's sometimes an inevitable symptom of a horrific illness.)

Anyhow, I'm randomly speculating now. I'll personally keep trying to find a treatment that at least manages the worst of it, but I'm lucky that I have access to that help.

BrokenSunglasses · 30/08/2013 13:21

Black humour is used to mean finding humour in something that isn't remotely funny, usually as a way of coping with it. It's like when the emergency services make what could be heard as innapropriate jokes about something horrible that they have to deal with, just as a way of dealing with it, not because it's actually funny.

It's not a meant as racist thing about black people.

Tiredtrout · 30/08/2013 13:34

I live very near a notorious level crossing where someone chose to end his life by parking his vehicle on the train track and waiting for a high speed train to hit him. He killed and maimed a lot of people that day. The first people on scene now have issues because of what they saw that caused them to leave their job.

Suicide is an awful thing for all around, it is just awful tobe at the point that you feel it's the best option. But there is no way that what that person did on the rail crossing that day, along with all the people since who copy them are not selfish

miemohrs · 30/08/2013 13:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rinoachicken · 30/08/2013 13:39

miemohrs "There but for the Grace of God"

Exactly how I feel. Thank you :)

noseymcposey · 30/08/2013 13:42

Sorry my post seems insensitive coming just after Rinoachcken.

duchessandscruffy · 30/08/2013 14:02

I know what black humour is, I just don't get why people need to use it to 'cope' with the fact that their day has been inconvenienced by a delayed train due to someone killing themselves.

SolidGoldBrass · 30/08/2013 14:07

WRT the long post on suicide, which is fair enough on the whole - there have been quite a few threads on here from women with abusive partners who frequently threaten and stage suicide 'attempts' as a means of getting their own way. Unfortunately these tosspots are never so obliging as to go through with it. And I think that it's quite important to remember that some people do use suicide threats as a way of manipulating others, and that if they've got a track record for it and finally do die, no one else should be blamed for having not done the right thing.

SolidGoldBrass · 30/08/2013 14:09

Duchess: People who use and get black humour are generally smarter and more realistic than whiny hand-wringers who value emotional display over action.

LookingThroughTheFog · 30/08/2013 14:11

I just don't get why people need to use it to 'cope'

I think people have all sorts of coping strategies.

Me and DH joke about my illness all the time. We call it 'gallows humour' which is also a bit... um. But it helps us to cope with what is otherwise a horrible thing.

BoneyBackJefferson · 30/08/2013 14:24

duchessandscruffy

"I know what black humour is, I just don't get why people need to use it to 'cope' with the fact that their day has been inconvenienced by a delayed train due to someone killing themselves."

I use it to cope with the memory of someone that jumped from a bridge and plastered themselves over the front of the college coach that I was in. 20 some odd years later and I can still remember the what he looked like.

When we get together as a group we make jokes about it, each one of us is haunted by that memory. That is 5 friends it was a full coach of 16 - 20 year olds, I hope that the other 48 people in the coach and all those involved in the accidents that it caused behind us have found a way to cope.

duchessandscruffy · 30/08/2013 14:38

I'm not talking about people who have had to witness someone splattered across the front of a train using black humour to cope - Christ do what you have to do, that is horrific to have to witness that. I am responding to the earlier post about people becoming desensitised to suicides just because they live in London and have to put up with delayed trains, and the reference to black humour.

I am not saying that people have to stand on the train platform wailing and outpouring heir grief for someone they never knew Hmm I am talking about people not moaning on Facebook/in real life about 'fucking jumpers' who have ruined their plans.

BrokenSunglasses · 30/08/2013 14:41

Then count yourself lucky that your job doesn't require you to deal with the aftermath of suicide, or other horrific things on a regular basis.

Some of my friends and I use what could be described as black humour when we are talking about what happened to another friend of ours who was murdered. I can assure you, we have plenty of other emotions that go along with it.

DuckToWater · 30/08/2013 14:47

I've certainly thought "How fucking selfish to kill yourself in rush hour!" when I was commuting to London. People just get caught up in the London rush, anything that gets in your way is just an inconvenience. I've had someone yell at me because my umbrella touched them, because they tripped over my bag strap (which was tucked well out of the way) and because I hesitated slightly getting my ticket out for the machine. Commuting and a stressful job can turn you into a stressed out automaton.