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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that if you don't like children, then don't...

126 replies

gintastic · 24/08/2013 15:52

go to Frankie & Benny's for lunch on a bank holiday Saturday.

Lots of tutting and humpfing from the elderly couple sat next to me and 3 DC's. They were all behaving nicely, eating properly, good manners etc.

Couple in question had a nice discussion about how eating out was a luxury and children today are spoilt, and how they didn't know anywhere where you can eat in peace these days.

Well, it certainly won't be F&B's, they are very kid orientated!

Would you have said anything, given that they didn't say anything to me, just had a loud conversation that I could hear and did lots of pointed looks at my 3yo when he dropped his fork on the floor...

OP posts:
FreudiansSlipper · 24/08/2013 18:00

how could you possibly hear what the couple were talking about on the next table on a Saturday afternoon in a busy restaurant

so what a couple were not enthralled with your children I think this tale is slightly exaggerated for mn so others can join in with the old people are so miserable weekly whinge

themaltesefalcon · 24/08/2013 18:00

Just to generalise wildly in the spirit of this thread, the elderly are bloody wonderful to kids. Every single person who stopped us this week in order to be lovely to my toddler was well over sixty.

Some frail old gent with a Zimmer frame even tried to give up his seat on the metro to us.

In a world where a lot of people charge along with their eyes glued to their inane fucking text conversations and happily batter my daughter's pram with their laptop bags and briefcases and shopping, I always feel relieved when I see a smily, grey-haired person coming towards us, cooing at my kid and asking her if she's a good girl and what her name is.*

Long live the elderly!

--

*"Dinosaur," apparently.

froubylou · 24/08/2013 18:01

Yanbu OP.

I don't like anyone else's dc except my own. But I wouldn't discuss their behaviour in a way that could be over heard. It's rude.

Children are easy targets. Especially those with only 1 parent present. I had it a few years ago and I am afraid I was rude back. In a passive aggressive socially acceptable way. But a couple insulted my dd before we had even got our coats off. She was 5 at the time and it was unnecessary and rude. I don't care if they were 60 yyears older. It wasn't called for.

And as for the OP making ageist remarks I would assume she was setting the scene for us. Strictly speaking we could have read the rest of the post and surmised they were older. But on a Saturday afternoon I appreciate the effort on her behalf to make it easy for me.

gintastic · 24/08/2013 18:03

They were talking loudly and the tables are pretty close together.

OP posts:
PresidentServalan · 24/08/2013 18:06

gintastic Yes, I think that's the point i was making although in a slightly convoluted way Grin The children may be on their best behaviour for their ages but if you are childfree that may still be 'unacceptable' to be around. I think the fact they were old isn't relevant though - I know plenty of people of all ages who may have reacted like they did.

Misspixietrix · 24/08/2013 18:06

Babyboomer I have started to wonder why I commented on here now too. As I too have never been in a F & B, Nandos or TGI's. Oh and I walked out of a Harvester within 10mins Grin

ExitPursuedByABear · 24/08/2013 18:09

What exactly qualifies as old ?

They may have talked loudly as they were hard of hearing.

thecatfromjapan · 24/08/2013 18:09

babyboomersrock ... but you're not going to find yourself sitting in a B and J booth, muttering passive aggressive remarks to a young mother, are you? Precisely because you have a good deal of social capital? Because you wouldn't regard the young women as a liminal figure, to whom you would direct your anger?

My guess is that the mutterers muttered because they felt insecure, and felt anger, however much of a misperception that might have been.

Some men attack some women because they feel anger towards what they think those women represent for them. I remember, years ago, a complete strange trying to push me in front of a car, on a busy street, in broad daylight. He didn't know me. I just represented something for him. I threatened him in some way, and threatened him enough for him to fill he had to kill me.

I would never say that one man represented all men. Or that his response was an automatic one. Indeed, I was actually rescued by a group of men coming to help me - proof that not all men/people react to me the way that one hostile, man did. However, that one man did misperceive something incredibly threatening and anger-inducing about me that made him want to kill/maim me.

Anger, fear, and power are interesting, and have interesting, and different, effects on different people. Just because you wouldn't react like that to a young mother doesn't mean all people, even all older people, wouldn't.

I don't think you can dismiss the OP's experience with mockery or by telling her she is being ageist.

Ageism, as in anti-old people hate-speech and action, definitely exists, but so does hostility towards younger people, especially mothers and children.

Fillyjonk75 · 24/08/2013 18:10

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Yes. It's known as a straw man argument.

Age is an attitude though not a number, I agree.

catinabox · 24/08/2013 18:12

theccatfromjapan what is a liminal figure?

Fillyjonk75 · 24/08/2013 18:13

Ageism, as in anti-old people hate-speech and action, definitely exists, but so does hostility towards younger people, especially mothers and children.

Exactly. A lot of people seem to think mothers in particular should never go out in public, until the children are adults. Fuck 'em in the head.

PresidentServalan · 24/08/2013 18:16

I think it's not so much that they think people shouldn't take the children out, more that people should have somewhere to go which is childfree so they have a choice of whether or not to be around them.

FreudiansSlipper · 24/08/2013 18:17

Where do all these mother's with young children hating people hang out

I have managed to avoid them so far but they sound so terrible I would like to know

JamieandtheMagicTorch · 24/08/2013 18:20

Oh, I have experienced cats bums mouths from some people in response to the mere presence of my children. Nothing to do with their behaviour - almost as if they want something to moan about. And yes, I'd say that when that has happened (the few times), it has been older people.

But most old people do not react in this way

I agree with themaltesefalcon

catinabox · 24/08/2013 18:21

Ah liminal figure* ..like an archetype or an embodiment of something else. A set of representations.

So a young mother = fertile, loved, youthful, attractive, cared and catered for by society etc.

So the man's anger and distain for gins family related to his perception of her as above.

So her producing these children who are going to use valuable resources when he has a grown up in a culture of scarcity and loss, triggers those negative feelings.

He feels he has an earned right to those feelings because he is also an older male?

PresidentServalan · 24/08/2013 18:22

Most British people are too polite to say anything but like with many things, people still feel irritated. And I imagine some don't hang out anywhere for fear of being overrun by children! Grin

ExitPursuedByABear · 24/08/2013 18:23

Well fuck me

thecatfromjapan · 24/08/2013 18:29

liminal - threshold.

between one thing and another.

Also something that is a boundary-marker.

The term is largely from anthropology and (I believe) derives from the idea of there being rituals in which individuals move from one state (child) to another (adult), with a "liminal" state (and thus, I guess, a liminal-person/thing) in between.

I use it coming from a humanities background, where it is useful hen thinking about how people think about things. We think of "things" as being bounded, especially identitities, but often things "blur" and slip between states of identity, or locations of identity.

In this context I'm thinking of how a woman/mother-out-with-her-children might be conceptualised.

Also, there is something about things that "slip about" identity-wise that attracts a lot of antipathy, a lot of ambivalence, and also a lot of psychological projection. When it comes to "liminal" people my belief is that liminality produces a great deal of sexual projection. And that this sexual projection is greater in those - and more strongly disavowed - in those who, themselves, have weak senses of their own boundaries.

i reckon that;s why you get specific porn about mothers.

But we are in weird territory now. I am no psychologist. If I were I would love to pursue this idea.

However, it is well off the original OP.

thecatfromjapan · 24/08/2013 18:31

catinabox - i was far too slow.

I think we should find a reading group to pursue these thoughts. Grin

Fillyjonk75 · 24/08/2013 18:33

Very interesting stuff, catfromjapan.

catinabox · 24/08/2013 18:37

Teenagers attract the same ambivalence from society.

I'm going to hold onto that Thecat I think you have something there. Are these your own thoughts and ideas?

Fillyjonk75 · 24/08/2013 18:38

I think it's not so much that they think people shouldn't take the children out, more that people should have somewhere to go which is childfree so they have a choice of whether or not to be around them.

I don't see what is so acceptable about this avoidance of whole sections of society. If people don't mix across generations this is when antipathy, stereotyping and fear develops.

Fillyjonk75 · 24/08/2013 18:40

Teenagers attract the same ambivalence from society

Gosh yes, a really negative press as well. They literally can never do right for doing wrong.

PresidentServalan · 24/08/2013 18:48

But forcing people to mix with children (which is effectively what happens if people want to go anywhere to eat etc) is pointless - it won't change people's minds. Do you want your DC surrounded by people who think they are a pita? And for all the analysis about why people feel that way, I honestly think it is as simple as them not liking children.

catinabox · 24/08/2013 18:50

I don't see what is so acceptable about this avoidance of whole sections of society. If people don't mix across generations this is when antipathy, stereotyping and fear develops

No I don't find it acceptable either. a D old F of mine set up a project to try and bridge the gap in her community between elderly people and teenagers. The teenagers were absolutely petrified of interacting with the group of elderly people. Huge amount of fear.

Maybe the lack of ritual in our culture. The lack of marking and honouring these transitions means we don't understand these transitions and therefore fear them.

I am heavily heavily pregnant and feel really uncomfortable out and about at the moment. I don't like it. What should be a time where i feel i am anticipating positively a new phase in my life and a new role, makes me feel vulnerable, exposed and strangely judged. A bit like public property that people aren?t really sure what to do with...so i stay in mostly.

What is all that about?

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