to wonder, where the move towards 'epidurals are wimping out' ideas come from?

[Thurlow]

I very strongly believe that every woman should be encouraged and supported to have the birth that they want, whatever they want to do.

But I've noticed over the past few years - anecdotally, on places like MN - that there is this background belief from some women that other women who have an epidural are somehow 'giving up' or 'not woman enough to cope' or 'not embracing a natural pain'.

Now I really don't care how people give birth, as long as they've been supported by their healthcare professionals to achieve what they want, because all that matters is that the mum and baby are both well. I understand the cascade of intervention that an epidural may bring, and that a pain relief free vaginal birth is probably, on the balance of things, better for both the mum and the baby as long as everything is going well.

But I can't help but wonder how or where the natural birth push has morphed into some people being so anti-epidural for other women, into the sort of judgement that someone women seem to embrace at the moment?

I've made my position clear: I think women should have the pain relief they want (or don't want). Obviously within the parameters of any medical issues. I don't think it's a matter for judgement at all. Once you start bandying around words like 'lucky' you are implying judgement and I'm not into that game. The only context in which I would use the word 'blessed' or 'lucky' is in having a birth with a good outcome: ie a healthy baby.

janey some people are blessed to have higher pain thresholds than others. It is difficult to measure or compare but people can tolerate differing levels of pain.

Also during the birth different factors affect the level of pain, this is a fact.

So if you manage to tolerate your labour pains and don't have any resulting trauma from a lack of pain relief then I think you were very blessed.

Jessie- I respect your feelings about your own labour- but as I say, I think it's a personal thing and its up to each individual to state how she feels about her own experience. I don't feel it's up to me to judge another woman 'blessed' or 'lucky' in her labour: I'm not her and I don't know how she feels.

I do feel blessed to have two lovely children though

Seriously Janey? You don't think a woman who has an 8 hr labour with no interventions at the end and goes home soon after, all fine, is luckier than a woman who labours for 36 hrs, back-to-back, baby stuck in birth canal, episiotomy, ventouse fails, forceps fail - and ends up with emcs and a week in hospital?

Really, there's withholding judgement and then there's just being plain awkward.

Janey, you say it's just nasty to say some women who had natural births are luckier than others. I'm sorry you find that nasty. But to be fair, I don't think the hurt really compares with comments such as "he was hoovered out of you", as I had once.

But if someone's circumstances are not due to 'random luck or fortune' then the implication is that they 'earned or deserved' it.

That implication is unfair and hurtful.

I had no pain relief first time round due to how fast I progressed. Bloody hell it hurt to the point that I thought I was going to black out. Second time round I had the full works, oxytocin, epidural, ventouse, episiotomy. I didn't feel any pain from the needle, as I was practically hysterical in pain. An hour after having it, I managed to gain some rest time as I was exhausted.

Neither births were 'easy' because however baby arrives it is never easy.

I think the wimping out mentality sometimes isn't helped by some ladies who,sugg

Bugger pressed send too soon. I was going to say, wimping out as it were I think is sometimes not helped by a few ladies who suggest that they'll have an epidural on the first contraction. That said, no-one knows someone else's pain threshold and so who are we to suggest otherwise? It's not a competition, a safe delivery for Mum and baby is all that matters, no matter how it's achieved.

YANBU. It is even upheld in antenatal sessions at the hospital I had my kids, the main focus was on home birthing, even though none of us in the room were planning one and she kind of glossed over pain relief and said it led to more medicalised births etc.
I'm sure in the states you can say before labour that you'd like one and you can have it from early on; here it's like you have to push yourself to the limit first.
I read a colleague's fb status when she'd given birth and it was here's my gorgeous boy, delivered on gas and air only, I thought wow is that the most important thing here?

"What is sadder is the phrase "as long as the mother and baby are bight well". Because in some cases the baby is stillborn, and that phrase diminishes the birth experience of those women"

What a bizarre statement. People are allowed to hope and want an alive babies at the end of it!

The fact I delivered a dead baby was the thing that diminished my birth experience, not a perfectly well meaning turn of phrase!

When I delivered my subsequent baby, my birth plan basically was "as little intervention as possible but whatever is needed for healthy mother and healthy baby".

Fredkiller- I said it was nasty when the implication is that someone has has an easier time, a shorter labour, or somehow has not felt as much pain as another woman. How can any of us possibly know?!

If a woman has an eight hour labour, no pain relief, no complications and is out of hospital quickly then if SHE feels she was 'lucky' then that's fine- but I think it's an entirely different thing for someone else to say she is lucky. None of us can know what that woman went through, how we'll she was supported etc

What this thread shows is that women can feel they've had a positive birth experience in all sorts of scenarios- some people have talked about having csections or very long drawn out labours where they had epidural topped up many times and forceps iin the end but they were positive and felt they had been given the intervention they requested. And yes equally some women who have natural births would describe themself as lucky or blessed like the poster above. But to start making. Value judgements such as someone having a labour without epidural MUST have felt less pain than someone who did have one is just crass

And also remember not all women have access to epidural anyway... You don't if you give birth at home or a midwife unit or if the anaesthetist is dealing with a medical emergency in hospital... Is anyone seriously saying that magically all women in the above situations have an easier/ shorter 'luckier' labour?

Honestly, why can people not accept that it's up to the individual woman to judge how her labour was - after all, who honestly has the arrogance to think they can judge another woman's experience ?
And it's ok for EVERY woman to feel empowered by her experience. I'm not saying everyone does necessarily, but it's a perfectly positive emotion and doesn't mean that if you feel it , you are Boastful or bragging

FWIW I have never told anyone in RL about my births unless they have specifically asked what pain relief I used. And yes, there were a couple of people in RL who asked and when I told them, responded with, gosh, you must have had an easy time then... That's pretty judgemental and highly innacurate- giving birth hurts like nothing on earth, end of! Fortunately these two were in a minority and most people wouldn't dream of trying to assume they know someone else's experience

You're the one being crass Janey, not to mention deliberately obtuse and illogical.

Who are we to judge? Um...we are sentient beings with powers of comparison - perhaps that's why!

If you break your arm and I break every bone in my body - am I still not allowed to judge that you are suffering less than me? Much as your broken arm is painful and unpleasant?

It sounds like you did have easy births (we all know it hurts like fuck, kind of par for the course) - most women would love to have an straight-forward delivery. They wouldn't be looking for sympathy and understanding from women who have been to hell and back.

Ok period math- you clearly are delighting in being judgemental and trying to make ridiculous comparisons about people breaking an arm versus every bone in their body!!

You go ahead and believe that I and lots of other women you don't know had 'easy births' - because it's clear you need to believe that to someone "justify" your own experiences.

Meanwhile, I will be quite content with knowing how my labour really was and will respect other women enough to know that they know how theirs was

I've had the wanting to die feeling twice. Giving birth to DD, and once with D&V (possibly food poisoning). I sincerely hope I will never feel like that again.

It's a very frightening primal feeling. After I had dc1 and talked to some other women who'd experienced it, I did wonder whether it would have been helpful to be warned in ante natal classes that we might feel it. Probably not though, it might have made the fear even worse

the 'wanting to die' feeling isn't exclusive to giving birth. also the feeling of actually having died due to pain, trauma and fear.

it's fairly commen in people who have suffered severe injuries, shock and pain.

my dd experienced this at 12 after a crash.

its the shock and pain here not the giving birth per se.

janey, I'm sorry, but in your posting here, you actually do come across as judgmental, even though you've gone to such pains to say that you aren't judging anyone. (I'm not even sure why you posted on this thread, given that you don't think it applies to yor experience in any way, unless it was to judge others.) And, yes, you're illogical in your conclusions - 'luck' is a huge part of it, and if one person was unlucky enough to have a more complicated birth with greater risk to mother or baby, they certainly don't need to avoid saying so. You are also coming across as very defensive, even though no one has asked you to justify your choices. You don't seem to understand it, but it is precisely these kind of responses which contribute to the situation described in the OP.

wimping out as it were I think is sometimes not helped by a few ladies who suggest that they'll have an epidural on the first contraction. That said, no-one knows someone else's pain threshold and so who are we to suggest otherwise?
knickyknowcks, I actually think we need to go further with this, and be clear that it simply doesn't matter what a person's pain threshold is. As long as the debate is about "did your labour hurt enough for you to be justified in getting pain relief", then it is still firmly tied up in ideas about 'worthiness' and 'strength of character' and 'wimpiness' and all the rest.

I've only had one DD, and I can't do any comparisons about how much it hurt. I know that I was given my epidural without any problems from medical staff because it was a complicated birth - but I also know that I planned on an epidural from the beginning - I wasn't interested in having any unnecessary pain during delivery, and made a completely informed decision about my own medical care, just as I would have for any other procedure.

Let's stop justifying why we wanted or needed epidurals - it feeds the idea that they are something shameful.

Imagine someone having a surgical procedure and them bragging about having no pain relief, you'd think they were crazy. Giving birth hurts and anything to make it less painful is ok by me.

The body- yes, I'm sure it's something people feel in other extreme situations too.

Brdgrl- it's getting a bit tiresome now- I am NOT being judgemental, it's a bit ironic coming from someone who is banging on about luck constantly, as if there are two types of birth: really straightforward, lucky and easy, or really complicated and awful.

Birth isn't like that: it's a spectrum, some women have straightforward pregnancies and the potential to give birth naturally, some women develop life threatening conditions like pre eclampsia - and everything in between. Some women have high pain thresholds, some lower, some with the same pain threshold will react differently, some will be well supported in labour, some wont. Some women have strong feelings about certain pain relief methods, others don't.

We are all individuals.

I am not judging. I have said that consistently throughout the thread (and by the way we are all allowed to post on whatever thread we like you know!) But as I say, if it makes other people feel more comfortable to judge, then judge away.

What this thread seems to show is that there really is felt to be a need to justify experiences one way or the other. Really, it's so sad

In an ideal world there wouldn't need to be much of a conversation at all.

Maybe, but then you did start the thread

Seriously, when there are midwives out there who are withholding pain relief without medical grounds for doing so then that's awful. Some people on here have had that experience, and I suspect that's where any suggestion of 'wimping out' comes from. IME women don't go around telling others they are wimps. I also feel quite strongly as I have said that women are allowed to feel empowered by their birth experience (actually 'allowed' is a daft word to use- as if anyone can stop women feeling whatever they feel!) Feeling empowered is not the same as going around boasting. Not at all.

janey, you really make no sense. I've hardly banged on about luck - that was you. I posted about 'luck' twice, and never said anything myself about non-epidural women being lucky. I have simply said that of course women who had births that were higher risk or complicated ARE luckier than those who didn't. and telling them they should not say so is absolutely obnoxious and absurd.

(By the way, absolutely NO ONE has said that every non-epidural birth was 'easy' or made any such suggestion. That's you projecting, I'm afraid.)

Of course we are all free to post where we like. But I can suggest that maybe another thread would be more appropriate, one about your own issue of feeling judged as a 'natural' birther. You don't mean to be judgmental, I get that. But people are saying, in a variety of ways on this thread, that they feel judged for their use of an epidural, and I have to tell you, whether you liike it or not, your posts contribute to that sense of judgement. If you are so willing not to judge, why do you continue in this vein? No one has criticised your choice. If you know that your posts upset people who made a different choice, why 'bang on' about it?

women who had births that were higher risk or complicated ARE luckier

typo, obviously I meant to say "ARE less lucky"

Maybe the answer is to start responding to stories and comments about people's pain-free birth 'triumphs' with the old chestnut, "How nice for you."