to wonder, where the move towards 'epidurals are wimping out' ideas come from?

[Thurlow]

I very strongly believe that every woman should be encouraged and supported to have the birth that they want, whatever they want to do.

But I've noticed over the past few years - anecdotally, on places like MN - that there is this background belief from some women that other women who have an epidural are somehow 'giving up' or 'not woman enough to cope' or 'not embracing a natural pain'.

Now I really don't care how people give birth, as long as they've been supported by their healthcare professionals to achieve what they want, because all that matters is that the mum and baby are both well. I understand the cascade of intervention that an epidural may bring, and that a pain relief free vaginal birth is probably, on the balance of things, better for both the mum and the baby as long as everything is going well.

But I can't help but wonder how or where the natural birth push has morphed into some people being so anti-epidural for other women, into the sort of judgement that someone women seem to embrace at the moment?

[Bunnygotwhacked]

If you have a headache you take a paracetamol noones going oh you are super woman if you suffer without painkillers if you need the epidural take it for whatever reason lots of different situations make it difficult for women to cope could be tiredness length of labour or just plain fear which can make you hysterical. I personally am terrified of the epidural the whole needle in the spine thing but if i could of got the same effect with a quick jab in the leg i'm pretty sure i would of gone for it

[meddie]

I dont get it either. At no other time are you expected to struggle on and cope with pain.
no one would applaud you for having your appendix out without pain relief. Why are women made to feel guilty for having pain relief during labour.
It bloody well hurts.
medical advances mean we have this lovely extremely effective method of relieving pain and yet its some badge of honour to struggle on without it.
Personal experience was my labour was much more painful than my appendicitis

[LillyGoLightly]

I have to say I probably would have had an epidural, but I was more scared of the needle in the back then I was the pain of labour. Funny thing is though, is that I don't have a fear of needles, don't mind having injections or blood taken, but the whole idea of a needle in my back/spine had me quiver in my boots lol.

I had just gas and air with DD1, well I say just gas and air, I had a tens machine and birthing ball...all was fab bouncing up and down on the ball feeling merry on the gas and air. Pushing DD1 out lying down on the bed was a different story though! I'm lying there doing my little lady like pushes (was scared of pooping lol) and got read the riot act by one of the midwives as pushing like that just wasn't going to get the job done, so I was convinced to give a proper almighty push. On doing my big push the pain felt like I was being split in two and I promptly cried my eyes out and had a right melt down grabbing DH by the scruff of the neck whilst screaming at him that I CAN'T DO IT, I WON'T DO IT, NO ONE CAN MAKE ME, I'VE CHANGED MY MIND. DD1 was born naturally pushed out by me, 10 minutes later. To this day I am still totally embarassed about my diva meltdown.

DD2 gas and air water birth, was lovely, very calm, no meltdowns from me, in fact I was cracking terrible (I thought I was hilarious) not funny jokes. Best bit...watching my DD being born and pulling her up out of the water.

[Bunnygotwhacked]

aye to needles i'm fine with them have had various piercings &tattoos even had tattoos on my back covering part of my spine but a spinal freaks me right out.
Love the Diva meltdown bless we all say and do daft and mostly aggressive things whilst in labour especially at that stage i bit my dh whilst having my first

[Minifingers]

Intervention like emergency c/s and forceps fillyjonk.

[hackmum]

The NCT teacher I had was absolutely wonderful, and she didn't say anything against epidurals - she was very balanced. I did have an epidural, and neither she nor anyone else in the class tried to make me feel bad about it.

My experience of NCT is that they just try to make you aware of the pros and cons. There are cons, of course - an epidural increases the risk of episitiomy and assisted delivery (forceps or ventouse). That is the "cascade of intervention", a phrase that has been derided by other posters, but which does, unfortunately exist.

In my case, I had an epidural because, after about 17 hours of labour, I was given a syntocinon drip to speed things up, and the syntocinon made labour agonisingly painful. So the syntocinon led to the epidural which led to the episiotomy and ventouse.

But I don't feel bad about any of it, and I don't regret any of it. It was just the way things worked out.

[Minifingers]

Some people are very motivated to avoid an assisted delivery or a c/s or exposing their babies to opioids. For these people there is very strong rationale for going without pain relief. Partly because opting to labour in a place where epidurals are available appears to reduce your chance of a normal birth.

Really - it's not fair to rubbish women's sincere reasons for not wanting pain relief as 'futile' or 'idealistic' or 'pointless' while at the same time bemoaning that women who want pain relief feel diminished by the attitudes of others.

[LillyGoLightly]

Bunnygotwhacked - LOL at you biting your DH.

My mum did similar to my Dad whilst in labour with me. She screamed at him 'look at what you have done to me...your never coming near me again'!! Obv not the case though since my lovely younger sister was born 4 years later lol.

[Minifingers]

Thurlow - can you link us to a thread where people clearly say that having an epidural means a mum is a wimp. There must be a few of them?

[Minifingers]

Thurlow - if a mum can get through birth without taking drugs and she is happy to do so, then it is better to go without as there is not a drug in this world which doesn't have side effects. All of the drugs used in labour (bar entonox) do sometimes cause quite serious problems (for example epidural sometimes causes the mother to develop a temperature and is associated with urinary retention after birth; pethidine sometimes results in the birth of a baby too sedated to breastfeed and with respiratory depression).

Do we have to pretend this is not true to protect the feelings of those of us who've used a lot of pain relief in labour? I don't think so.

[Minifingers]

As for fetishing pain - if you intend to do without pain relief it's a good idea to do some thinking about the emotional and psychological experience of dealing with severe pain and focus on what you might gain from not having pain relief. It's a sensible strategy. I wanted a natural birth primarily for health reasons but wondered if there would be any psychological benefits for me in doing it this way. I think there were!

[Snazzyenjoyingsummer]

But a vaginal birth can also have consequences that are quite unpleasant, and, as has been said here, those are frequently ignored in the evaluation of different birth experiences.

[Bearandcub]

Both of mine were induced due to complications they were both back to back too. I had epidurals for each. I didn't manage the pain but did not have the opportunity to have a natural pain it was all chemical and rushed. I needed the epidurals and am glad I had them.

[OHforDUCKScake]

I had all the drugs with my first, including epidural.

With my second, I said I didn't want all that because I didn't want to be stuck on the bed etc.

But over 2 years later I will admit that I didn't have any drugs for the second birth because I felt the need to prove to myself and others that I could do it without them.

It's ridiculous I know.

I actually liked both births though, despite how different they were.

[Solari]

After an extremely painful birth (syntocin and back-to-back, and epidural inserted unsuccessfully then removed due to sudden high fever), I bled out over 2 litres and had something excruciating done to me. Lots of what felt like pummeling to my abdomen and ?packing to stop the bleeding.

Then I had to have a 1 hour drip to put me in a constant state of contraction (again, to stop the bleeding), and was in so much pain I would have been howling if I had the energy (sobbed into hospital pillow instead).

Finally, a doctor came and hooked me up to some kind of IV pain relief with a button I could push for more. It was such a relief I could have fallen to my knees with gratitude.

Then, not even 20 mins later a new midwife started shift and immediately wanted to take the drip away "You don't need that, you had a normal birth!" I have never felt such desire to actually punch someone before, especially since she went out of her way to actually get it taken away from me. Why? I just don't get it...

[badguider]

Not wanting an epidural isn't about wanting to experience pain though, or thinking it's 'tough' or 'better' to do without pain.

In my area you can't use the pool with an epidural and need to be in the CLU where the anaesthetists are (not MLU) and they can't guarantee 'mobile' epidurals on every shift or that the mobile type will allow full mobility.

So for me, attempting to labour without an epidural is nothing to do with pain whatsoever, it's about wanting to stay active and use gravity and the pool and knowing that I am a real fidgit and would hate to be constrained and much prefer to be able to move around freely.

On the other hand, if I am constrained by an IV or induction or CFM or utterly exhausted by a long labour and find myself lying on a bed anyway, then I will take the epidural.

[janey68]

I think it cuts both ways. I had people telling me my labour must have been easy, or short, or the baby really well positioned, or that I was just lucky, to have my first (and second) baby without epidural

Hahahahahaha

[DropYourSword]

I just think it's disgusting and unforgivable for midwives to feel they can withhold arranging an epidural for someone if they have requested one. Although I do understand that there are sometimes genuine reasons for delays (anaesthetist in theatre or at an emergency).

[PeriodMath]

I totally agree with the poster who referred to partners/husbands who send emails or FB updates out after the baby is born in which they comment on the mother's lack of drugs as being commendable.

What a trooper, my warrior wife, beautiful natural water birth - no drugs - so proud - I have read all these comments. It always irritates me too. It's just so patriarchal - really, your wife and child being alive and well at the end of the process should be the only thing to marvel at.

I don't think I've ever heard people of our generation suggest pain relief is for wimps but the rejoicing in a "natural birth" kind of has the same implication.

Can you imagine a woman posting on FB: poor DH has passed a huge gall-stone, took 18 hrs but he didn't take a single aspirin - was beautiful experience, am so proud of him! #herohusbands

[Thurlow]

Sorry, I didn't plan on this becoming yet another pain relief v non-pain relief debate. I believe that every way of giving birth is valid and no, minifingers, I don't in any way think that we should pretend that there are no potential complications to using pain relief vs a pain relief free natural birth. Though I don't seem to be able to win, as I have also been picked apart for saying there are potential side effects to using pain relief.

What I was interested in was almost where this larger debate has come from in the first place. Personally, I do think the use of words like "motivated" does actually imply that women who decide to use pain relief haven't, in some way, concentrated hard enough or worked hard enough to manage a pain free delivery. This is of course a very sensitive debate as generally whatever anyone says can be seen as a slight on other people's experiences.

Why, recently, does is seem to have become such a public debate that women are in this position to feel slighted by other people's experiences?

The thread I am remembering in particular, but I can't find at the moment, was about people feeling pride in a pain-relief free birth, which did include some posters saying that they 'worked hard' at not needing pain relief and suggested that if other posters had focused on hypnobirth etc they could have managed it too. I might try and find it later but am MNetting on the sly here while Justin's House works as a a distraction

On a side note, it's not possible in every PCT to choice a location to give birth that doesn't offer ready access to epidurals. Our MLU and CLU are in the same building - even if you chose the MLU, the anesthetist is still only one floor away!

[Thurlow]

Sorry, didn't read period's post properly before I posted. YYY, the rejoicing of natural birth has within it an implication that it is better.

[FredKiller]

PeriodMath

[DropYourSword]

Aw, I just think you have some proud husband's and daddies who want to sing their wife's praises. I thought it happened for any type of birth.

[OxfordBags]

I had it in my birth plan that I MUST have an epidural. Fuck writhing about in agony for the best part of a day (it was still hellish, but the epi certainly made it bearable). Some women get far too wound up about refusing pain relief, like they're going to win the prize of Top Martyr if they suffer. And once you've won it, so what? We've both still got a baby at the end of it.

If you don't want pain relief, or actually don't feel you need it, great. If you want a really natural birth with zero outside help, go for it, I'm on your side. If you want to have ATD (all the drugs), cool. If you have a cs, planned or otherwise, then that's fine too. There is no hierarchy. Getting a live, healthy baby is the goal.

And all this stuff about interventions equalling failure is not only offensive, but stupid. Without interventions, half of us wouldn't be here, either because we or our own mothers would have died during or after labour, or we'd have died ourselves giving birth. Or been seriously messed up forever. No-one wants needless interventions, but we are fucking lucky we have them just in case.

[tobiasfunke]

I think there is really an attitude that having an epidural is wimping out. Anytime I mentioned it to midwives or the NCT lady they weren't against it per se just giving me lots of reasons why it wasn't as brilliant as it sounds and how long my laboutr would be etc etc. I had one - after that evil syntocin drip made me almost hallucinate with pain. Turns out it was as brilliant as it sounds.
After I had Ds 3 different friends who had had babies in the previous year admitted they had had one. Never mentioned it before when I asked them what labour was like.
I tell everyone who will listen how wonderful it was.