to wonder, where the move towards 'epidurals are wimping out' ideas come from?

[Thurlow]

I very strongly believe that every woman should be encouraged and supported to have the birth that they want, whatever they want to do.

But I've noticed over the past few years - anecdotally, on places like MN - that there is this background belief from some women that other women who have an epidural are somehow 'giving up' or 'not woman enough to cope' or 'not embracing a natural pain'.

Now I really don't care how people give birth, as long as they've been supported by their healthcare professionals to achieve what they want, because all that matters is that the mum and baby are both well. I understand the cascade of intervention that an epidural may bring, and that a pain relief free vaginal birth is probably, on the balance of things, better for both the mum and the baby as long as everything is going well.

But I can't help but wonder how or where the natural birth push has morphed into some people being so anti-epidural for other women, into the sort of judgement that someone women seem to embrace at the moment?

[brdgrl]

No, but equally we don't have to justify not having pain relief

No, you don't. Stop doing it.

[janey68]

I wasnt. I am just pointing out that its pretty judgemental to be told that you must be 'lucky', or have had an 'easy' labour, or a well positioned baby, or a short labour, if you have gone without pain relief, because none of these things are necessarily true. And it's really bloody annoying when people trot out the old line about not having a tooth out without pain relief... No, I wouldn't have a tooth out without being anaesthetised either, but having a tooth out isn't the same as giving birth.
It's about having respect BOTH ways round.

[ChunkyPickle]

I was going to avoid epidural - but like many here, after 3 days, the last of which on syntocin, I needed something, and the thought of the needle was no-longer the worst thing in the world.

I think there's intention, there's how you see pain, and then there's how the birth actually goes.

This next birth, I'm going into it with a more open mind. If the pain is OK, then I'll skip heavy duty pain relief, but if it gets to the point of not coping then I see no problem with an epidural.

Surely that's just sensible, reasoned - you take the situation as it comes.

[FredKiller]

Janey - did it ever occur to you that all those trite statements regarding teeth and operations might be a way of making people who feel bad about not managing to have a natural birth feel just a bit better?

And I'm sorry if I'm a bit sensitive about this minifingers. (Aside from the time I sat next to Westlife on a flight), my DS's birth was the most important/momentous day of my life so I kind of think about it from time to time.

[janey68]

I am saying that those trite statements are actually equally dismissive fredkiller. They just somehow seem to be more socially acceptable.

Telling a woman who has had a long, gruelling, extremely painful first birth that she must have been 'lucky' or it can't have been 'too bad' simply on the basis that she didn't have an epidural, is actually pretty nasty. And the trite comment about teeth out implies that a woman is stupid or masochistic to have a baby without being anaesthetised.

All I am saying is that I completely respect a woman's choice about pain relief ( obviously in some cases like medical emergency and cs there isn't a choice anyway), and it would be nice if that respect was mutual

[zoobaby]

Bloody media. Remember when whatshername gave birth a month ago and the news was awash with her natural birth? I'm sure the private preparations with birthing gurus and, on the day, the presence of 4 midwives and 2 gynaes had nothing whatsoever to do with it .

I admit I haven't read all replies so apologies if repeating... When I had DS, it was an expectation that I WOULD be having an epidural. The 2nd MW was surprised that I didn't have one in initial stages. No idea if this was due to the fact I was induced or due to pain management culture at the hospital in question.

To be honest I declined due to being worried about a needle in my spine (as already stated up thread) but also because I secretly wanted to see if I could do it without. What a silly sausage I was! Haha.

[zoobaby]

How about birthing injuries OP? I found those stories to be more competitive than pain relief choices.

[FreeWee]

I loved my epidural. Loved it. Will be having another one please. Had an EMCS in the end so they just topped up the epidural. Would I have needed to have an EMCS without an epidural? Dunno but I would have been out of my tree with pain! People say you forget the pain. I have not forgotten the pain. I want to get pregnant and fall asleep for 9 months waking up to find a beautiful baby in my arms. Am I a wimp? Everyone experiences pregnancy and birth differently. I, for example, experience shitty shitty shittiness. HG from pregnancy test to delivery suite. Having had a terrible pregnancy I didn't want a terrible birth or I'd end up with PTSD and never want another baby.

[TarkaTheOtter]

janey I do get what your saying. I think deep down I do assume that people who didn't request an epidural were in less pain than me because, at the point at which I asked for it i was out of my mind with pain and I wanted to die. To be brutally honest i wouldnt have cared about the possibility of a less desirable outcome for the birth. So I can't imagine someone feeling like that and not wanting an epidural.

[mamamidwife]

What I find sad is the experiences people have had where they feel they have been denied pain relief like an epidural. I can understand the situations an epidural might be refused, like a high temp or too close to pushing, but this does not excuse disrespecting a woman and not listening to her wishes, providing what she wants, if not appropriate be honest and sort out an alternative if possible.

I think there is a place for epidurals though. I have seen it bring down the blood pressure in the severely pre-eclamptic woman. I have seen women with so much fear about labour pain that an epidural has released that stress from them and improved contractions. I have delivered women with epidurals on their knees & on birth stools when possible. Epidurals are not all about intervention, sometimes they are potentially life saving, sometimes they are freeing, sometimes they can work with nature. It's individual.

I really think its about going with the flow. It's about having good rapport with a midwife and good support from the birth partner, this contributes greatly to how a woman copes with the labour and birth (with all that entails) and her overall experience.

[Rhubarb78]

I have had one birth with an epidural and one 'natural' ie no bloody pain relief.

The epidural birth was lovely despite the need for forceps, it was really calm and relaxed. The pain relief free birth was traumatic, extremely painful and stressful as I had a room full of people shouting at me to push while the ventouse dragged my poor baby out and I screamed the place down

If I have another I will be requesting an epidural at the slightest twinge, why be in agony if it can be avoided?

[janey68]

I also remember feeling I wanted to die; and having talked to other women it seems to be something a lot of women experience... a powerful and primal response to the body experiencing pain like nothing it's ever felt before.

I think you hit the nail on the head Tarka when you say it's hard to imagine another woman's experience: my point is that we don't need to, we shouldn't need to feel we should try to put ourselves in someone else's shoes: it's about just accepting that we're all individuals

[VikingVagine]

Almost exactly the same as Rhubarb . 4 years on and I still have nightmares about my "natural" birth.

As DH says, you wouldn't have a tooth removed without pain relief would you?

[apprenticemamma]

mama midwife what's your diary like for march 4th 2014? I could use a midwife like you !!!!! And after hearing all these stories it's reinforced my birth plan, epidural if poss.

[ukatlast]

Quote Thurlow:
'Ukatlast, are you in the UK? Epidurals are generally only available in the UK once you reach 4cm. You can do day's worth of labouring to get to that stage.'

Yes I am now back in UK and had both my kids on NHS in UK at a hospital with a high epidural rate back then 40% I think according to DrFoster.
I was induced and so was able to get my epidural nice and early. I had an elective C section for second arranged on basis that baby was big ilke first but also that hospital couldn't guarantee availability of epidural and I had several friends who had been fobbed off by evil midwives with their second with the 'its to late story'....it wasn't going to happen to me if I could help it.
My kids are at Secondary School now but this topic incenses me that something so basic as pain relief is denied to women in Labour and that they are indoctrinated into thinking they don't need it.

I did end up with intervention ventouse/forceps (big baby who didn't want to come out) but it was painless, the same anaethetist came back and topped me up....anaethetists are usually very pro providing pain relief so the key is to find a hospital that has enough of them I think.

I think I may be the only person in UK who has managed 2 painfree deliveries on NHS...one induced vaginal and one ELCS. The ELCS was by far the best experience though. All staff were pleasant for both.

[ukatlast]

Janey68 no one ever said you did have to justify choosing not to have pain relief. I am 100% women being free to choose for themselves but feel the pro-pain relief lobby are the ones being fobbed off by midwives.

[jessieagain]

I personally don't think agree with your op.

In my nhs birth class we were told about all methods of pain relief and I don't remember being dissuaded from using any.

They did say that epidurals can slow down the process and statistically leads to further interventions, but that is all.

From this information I decided that I would wait until I couldn't handle the pain until getting pain relief. I wouldn't start out asking for relief, I would wait and see how I felt.

If I needed pain relief I planned to start with gas and air then move on to epidural and then if I still needed something I would ask for pethadine. This was the order I decided to take as I sometimes don't react well to medication and I didn't want to take pethadine before the epidural.

As it was I was quite lucky and gas and air was enough (I did need that right from the start).

[janey68]

Ukatlast- I agree if there is evidence that women who
Want an epidural are being denied them by midwives then its important that the subject is aired. It's awful if that is happening without medical justification.

But the OP was suggesting that its other sources that the 'anti pain relief' stems from and even states that its women on MN who are talking of having an epidural as 'wimping out' . I just don't see the evidence of that at all... I think 99% of women on here seem to be saying its about choice (notwithstanding that some medical situations don't allow for choice)
In fact like I say, if anything it seems to have swung the other way, and it's women who go without pain relief who are seen as weird, or masochistic to put their body through that level of pain when they could avoid it. There seems to be a refusal to accept that some women just don't view childbirth as completely different to illness or other medical situations like tooth extraction.

[PeriodMath]

Janey68, why do you keep saying this thing about being told you must have had an easy birth if you didn't need/want an epidural? Has somebody on this thread said that? I don't recall anyone posting that. Although clearly being in painful labour for 12 hrs (standard for a first birth) is easier than being in painful labour for, say, 36 hrs.

I don't think anyone is judging women who don't have pain-relief. They are judging the smug attitude some of those women who, having gone down that route (very often against their will actually) later decide to shout it from the rooftops and refer to the experience as empowering (vom) or something to be proud of. It may well be something to be pleased about but as soon as you claim to be proud of it you are in danger of appearing to denigrating the alternative. Worse still, is when people give very specific reasons to do with baby welfare and bonding as making no analgesia the only responsible route.

[jessieagain]

Have just read some other posts and I'm surprised about the nct being mentioned (and blamed), as I don't think that many women go to their classes as they are quite expensive in some areas.

I only know a couple of people who went to them, most go to nhs classes or nothing at all. I didn't even know about nct classes until I found mumsnet.

So I think this is quite an area-specific assumption to make.

Availability of epidurals also seems quite variable from area to area.

A friend of mine had an epidural in the 'natural birth centre' of the hospital to her surprise! (We had all been told that if you wanted an epidural you would need to be transferred into the labour ward but obviously there wasnt much pressure on hospital services when she was in labour).

In the ideal world all women could start out in the natural birth centre, if they chose that initially, and if they require further pain relief they could receive it straight away, without being transferred out.

[janey68]

Periodmath- read the thread: there are countless references to women being 'lucky' if they laboured without an epidural (which rather implies that their labour was in some way easier or shorter) while that old chestnut about no one having a tooth out without pain relief has cropped up quite a few times on this thread too.

And who are these women who are 'shouting from the rooftops' about having had a natural birth? Don't recognise that at all. Feeling empowered is a different thing though.. Every woman has the right to feel empowered by giving birth; I personally found it hugely empowering. That's totally different to shouting it from the rooftops though

[jessieagain]

janey I said earlier that I was lucky to not have needed anything more than gas and air for pain releif.

I will change that to I was blessed.

[janey68]

I think everyone who has a healthy baby is blessed. Nothing blessed about the actual labour though, to my mind

[brdgrl]

Are you suggesting that there isn't an element of luck?
For some women, they had too much pain to continue labour without an epidural. It is reasonable for these women to say that they were not 'lucky' enough to make a different choice, if they wanted to.
What is your objection to that? (Unless of course you really think they did have more of a choice then they are putting forth, and think they should have just tried a little harder.)

This thread began with, and continues to produce examples of, women who had an epidural and consequently feel their birth experience is denigrated by other mums or by the institutions around us. You don't have to agree with the OP, it wasn't your experience, but it undeniably is the experience of others.

[jessieagain]

I felt I was truly blessed to have my labour.

Was like something I never experienced before. Pain like I'd never experienced before.

But I had a fantastic midwife and felt no fear, as I trusted her and my dp and my hospital.

I trusted they would look after me and my baby and fortunately they did, so I was blessed.

If they hadn't I would have felt so betrayed and upset about it all, which is why some women are so sensitive and heartbroken about their birth experiences. :(