What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

[FrigginRexManningDay]

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl.

One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

Curlew - I don't believe in your religion, but I want to be part of your group for social reasons. Can I join and does DD need her belly button pierced?

Absolutely- it's the only way she'll be accepted. If she doesn't have it done and one of the boys in the group wants to marry her, he will be cut off from his family forever. They will say the special prayers for the dead for him and never mention his name again.

If you're trying to be witty and ridicule Judaism (as millions have done throughout history) then you've failed and just shown up your true motives and feelings. It's pathetic. But at least you got a laugh, hey?

I'm sure the English defense league would appreciate your humor.

Ah. You make my point exactly. Faith trumps all. If I say "I have to do this because of my faith" then everyone else had to back down.

Well, no, I don't. Whatever the faith is. If it's wrong it's wrong. And performing unnecessary surgery on people unable to consent is wrong.

^^ hear here

Wow this really is a fair debate thread turning in to not so thinly veiled out and out anti-Semitic craziness.

There is no anti semitism. There is anti performing unnecessary surgery on people unable to consent. It is impossible to relationally defend the practice so as a last resort, the charge of anti semitism is brought out. Debate doesn't get much lower than that.

Curfew, there is much debate to be had In a fair and constructive way, your last couple of posts went way over the line

Really? How?

Curlew - here's something that my colleagues used to say if I had to reschedule an exam from a Jewish holiday: "What if I founded a new religion that didn't allow exams altogether? Would I have to be given AAA?" - not necessarily anti-semitism, but just puerile.

Very few people have said in history that they're anti- Jewish as such, it's just that they're against people who reject Christ, cosmopolitans, capitalists, communists, you-name-it.

I understand you don't want to have your DS circumcised. No one's asking you to. You do seem to have an irrational concern for Jewish and Muslim boys which I find odd, given that (with the exceptions I've mentioned before) not many of them seem too bothered themselves.

I repeat. I am against unnecessary surgery own people who can't consent. And I am also against people using their faith as a justification for doing things otherwise unjustifiable. This thread is about circumcision. I would be equally definite on a thread about Christians demanding the right to discriminate against homosexuals, or, as in some sects they do, demand the right to beat their children.
The piercing the girl baby's belly button example, I suspect, went a little close to home, which is why the anti Semitic "big gun" came out. But it won't work.

Interesting, crescentmoon. Show me where I said anything about being more concerned about the unnecessary circumcision of unconsenting Jewish or Muslim babies than the unnecessary circumcision of any other unconsenting baby? I suspect you are hunting for anti semitism where none exists.

You will notice that I have always said that I am opposed to medically unnecessary surgery in people who are unable to consent. Other people have brought in faith and culture. Which I have consistently said is no justification. Any more than the alleged health benefits are.

Curlew, I made the comment because yes your example was puerile, but you were also very sneering at someone elses culture, just very poor analogies.

Why is it a poor analogy? It's making a change to the body of someone who can't consent for no legitimate reason.

Interesting...this thread seems to appear every 6-12 months, get very heated, and doesn't go anywhere.

No-one who is opposed to male circumcision is going to change their minds as a result of anything posted on here.

No-one who has circumcised (or is planning to circumcise) their sons is going to suddenly come the realisation they've 'done the wrong thing' as a result of the anti-circumcision league.

And it does, always, become somewhat about religious observance, by default, because how can it not, once we agree that 98% of male circumcision in this country is connected to ritual rather than medical need? So, even if no-one intends to sound anti-Semitic/racist/a little bit EDL about things, of course they are going to, because they are, effectively, passing judgement on two non-Christian (therefore (subtext, non-English) religions.

Walk away, people. Walk away.

Ok, Curlew - i'll take the bait - it's a crap analogy because your "religion" doesn't seem to have any other features. If you write a tome of world changing literature, which forms the basis of the religion of half the world's population, get it to survive for more than 3000 years, and spread its adherents across much of the world, then I'll sure the government of the day will consider whether belly-buttons should have protection ....

Fillybuster- so are you saying that nobody should ever challenge anything done in the name of faith for fear of accusations of prejudice?

So, Sam. The Argument from Antiquity. We have been violating the bodily integrity of our boy babies for millennia, so we should continue to do it? Without question? And we should continue to terrify anyone who might not want to do it with threats of exclusion so that they daren't even question it?
For the avoidance of doubt, I am addressing the issue of circumcision in the Jewish community because that's is what the thread seems to be about. I would be equally happy to engage any other group/individual who thinks it's OK to perform unnecessary surgery on people unable to consent.

Curlew, you clearly think that all Jews and Muslims are brainwashed or coerced. That is not true. In fact, even the most lapsed, bacon-eating, married-a-shiksa Jews I know still circumcise their boys. They are not doing it because they fear exclusion from the community - they have effectively left the "community" long ago, but they are still 100% happy that they were circumcised, are thankful that their parents made that decision for them, and want to make that decision in the best interest of their sons.

Plenty also opt for the ritual circumcision to be performed by a doctor, in a clinical setting, with effective pain relief being given.

"Curlew, you clearly think that all Jews and Muslims are brainwashed or coerced. That is not true. In fact, even the most lapsed, bacon-eating, married-a-shiksa Jews I know still circumcise their boys. They are not doing it because they fear exclusion from the community - they have effectively left the "community" long ago, but they are still 100% happy that they were circumcised, are thankful that their parents made that decision for them, and want to make that decision in the best interest of their sons."

I'm really sorry- but that is practically a definition of brainwashing.

and want to make that decision in the best interest of their sons.

Plenty also opt for the ritual circumcision to be performed by a doctor, in a clinical setting, with effective pain relief being given.

Curlew - we don't live in a ghetto - no-one is forced to be part of a community, and we've heard on this thread from some who have left. That's their prerogative. We don't track down apostates or do honour killings. The Jewish community is fairly well educated, and parents make their decisions on the basis of what they consider best for their children. The life chances of Jewish kids in this country are pretty good, and there are almost certainly other groups more deserving of your sympathy....