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What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

662 replies

FrigginRexManningDay · 06/08/2013 09:35

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl.

One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

OP posts:
Namechangingnorma · 10/08/2013 23:18

DH's view and that of all of his peer group is that they would have been very angry and hurt and would have viewed their parents as negligent had they not circumsised and would have caused them untold problems. I simply don't think unless you are part of an ethnic minority group you can understand, you can theorise from the outside but you just don't and won't ever be able to get it. The bottom line is we love our children just as much as you do and we care for them just as much as you do.

Sallyingforth · 10/08/2013 23:35

Kungfutea
I understand that you strongly disagree with what I said, but it does you no good to pretend that I said something different.

What I actually said was -
he hasn't ever known anything different and so he accepts it as normal,
which is entirely true.
A man who has grown up without a foreskin hasn't known any different, and so it is normal to him. Ask him if he doesn't feel normal. Of course he does!

And yes, I do know men who have been circumcised. As it happens I'm a naturist so I have met with many men in the nude and I can tell you that not all of them have been cut very neatly.

Sallyingforth · 10/08/2013 23:37

I'm leaving this thread permanently now. After 24 pages neither side has change their views, and never will. Goodnight.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 10/08/2013 23:40

Circumcision is a violation of a child's human rights with references

Kungfutea · 10/08/2013 23:48

It's good that you link to studies since then you can see such 'junk science' like this one you linked to;
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1079.x/pdf

Where women were recruited from an ad in an ANTI CIRCUMCISION NEWSLETTER!!! Well, that sounds like an unbiased sample to me Hmm
Most women don't actually read anti circumcision newsletters!! And I'd assume the ones who do have an axe to grind, so to speak.

You see, this is why references are so important.

Kungfutea · 10/08/2013 23:58

This one doesn't even mention circumcision but is thrown into the mix as some kind of evidence
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19948898

And the vast majority of those 'references' are opinion pieces rather than original research.

Clear now why they didn't want to link to them!

Kungfutea · 11/08/2013 00:00

Exactly namechanging!

Although your poor DH just doesn't know that he's been mutilated! He doesn't know any different!

But lucky him that sallyingforth knows better than he does what's good for him.

TheRealFellatio · 11/08/2013 07:42

Curlew, no one on this thread is arguing that faith trumps all arguments. The pros and cons of, and people's reason to opt for, circumcision in a variety of societies, have been explained over and over. You are evidently not receptive to them.

I have to disagree with this. People who circumcise NOT for reasons of faith may well will have given serious thought to 'the pros and cons and reasons to opt for', as you say. Over time I think the practice is, and will become common less and less common when Islam/Judaism has no cultural or religious part to play in the decision.

On the other hand, people of faith (or sometimes just people who are Jew/Muslim by cultural identity rather than by any actual genuine faith) will probably never stop to consider the pros and cons and reasons to opt for. It is so culturally ingrained in them to just do it anyway that they suspect someone already found the answer out on their behalf, a few millenia ago (because obviously there were so many very accurate peer reviewed medical studies back then. Hmm )

Even when something forces them to consider an alternative view, and even if they could be shown unequivocally that there is:

no blanket need
no blanket justification
no net benefit (for all circumcised men as a whole)

some serious risk both in the long and short term
sometimes even death, through botched procedure
not to mention the very contentious issue of what many see as cruel physical assault

they are, in overwhelming numbers, going to feel a sense of cognitive dissonance that is so all consuming that there really is nothing anyone could say, or show them to change their minds.

That is where faith trumps all argument.

TheRealFellatio · 11/08/2013 07:43

may well will? Confused Sorry!

Cococo · 11/08/2013 09:58

Both my dcs had tongue ties cut as tiny babies. It may or may not prevent them talking with a lisp when older, and it may or may not have made feeding easier. However easier to do it as babies, there was no anaesthetic involved, a midwife did it in hospital, and they fed immediately afterwards and only cried for a second. It would have been a much bigger thing to get done as an older child if they'd needed or wanted it. I made a decision for them and I don't expect to be accused of mutilating my children because I had a useless piece of skin cut. Why should someone who makes an informed decision on circumcision be accused in that way. You do what you feel is right for your child.

curlew · 11/08/2013 10:04

Presumably you had the tongue ties cut because your children were not feeding properly? Not even remotely parallel.

ShellyBoobs · 11/08/2013 10:06

That's brilliant Cococo

You've compared the repair of a physical abnormality with cutting part of a baby's perfectly normal cock off for the benefit of the parents' beliefs.

Hmm
Cococo · 11/08/2013 10:20

No - loads of people live with a tongue tie and its perfectly fine, doesn't cause any problems - I did it in anticipation that it might be a problem later on - so do lots of people who choose to circumcise for possible health benefits later on. Not such a wild stretch of the imagination - both are useless pieces of skin that people are quite able to function without - and I've seen kids have to suffer circumcision as older children and I think they all wished they'd had it done as babies!

curlew · 11/08/2013 10:23

So if there weren't any problems, how on earth did you know they had a tongue tie? And how did you persuade the midwife to snip it? Hmm

Kungfutea · 11/08/2013 10:55

No. Not at all therealfellatio

You are also patronizingly deciding the thought processes of others. Of course, it's so culturally ingrained in Jews that they're simply unable to see things the way you do....or perhaps there's another side to things???

Most of my friends (and all of my Jewish friends) who had baby boys had them circumcised. None of them felt this 'cognitive dissonance' that you assume they had. And among this crowd were very educated people, including doctors, psychologists, researchers, who are just as competently able to assess the evidence and decide for themselves.

curlew · 11/08/2013 11:08

If you look at the evidence, there is no good reason to circumcise a baby boy- unless he happens to live in sub Saharan Africa and we are assuming that the attitude to condom use in that part of the world will remain unchanged by the time he is sexually active.

And people who circumcise for faith/cultural reasons are
by definition not competently assessing the evidence. Because faith is not rational. Also by definition.

Kungfutea · 11/08/2013 11:18

Nope, if the evidence were that it's harmful, on balance, then I wouldn't regardless of culture. That's MY logical order. First, assess the evidence (which I think I am just as competent as anyone else to do as I've had training in critically appraising research). THEN bring culture into it.

curlew · 11/08/2013 11:28

I'm not arguing that circumcision is harmful on balance. I am arguing that it has no benefit. So it is performing needless surgery on a person who is not capable of consenting.

Kungfutea · 11/08/2013 12:14

So since it's not harmful, then how is it different to having braces fitted? I accept that the health benefits are minimal. But there are cultural benefits. The child is also not capable of consenting to NOT having the surgery as a newborn when it is safer and more straightforward.

So if we agree that it's not harmful (unlike female genital mutilation), then as with many other decisions that I make with respect to my children, I will make the decision which I consider to be in their best interest overall.

ShellyBoobs · 11/08/2013 12:23

So since it's not harmful, then how is it different to having braces fitted?

Fitting braces is, again, done with the aim of correcting an abnormality. Cutting off a baby's foreskin isn't done to correct an abnormality.

Your analogy would fit better if you'd said "removing children's teeth", rather than "having braces fitted".

After all, if we removed children's teeth, they could still live perfectly well and they wouldn't be at risk of decay and the resulting painful treatement.

Alternatively, we could just teach and encourage good oral hygiene. You know, in the same way you can teach a little boy to look after his penis instead of cutting part of it off to save the bother...

Cococo · 11/08/2013 12:42

Hilarious that Shellyb ridiculed me for comparing with a tongue tie, yet has now made a comparison with having all your teeth removed at birth - this thread is ridiculous, let parents make their own minds up!

Curlew, you sound very suspicious - midwife noticed the tongue tie after I mentioned that I had one - they were quite keen to cut it as part if a midwife led clinic, it is done routinely - I found it made no difference to the feeding but thought it might make speech easier later on - but maybe not!

TheRealFellatio · 11/08/2013 12:44

Kungfutea So I'd like to ask the Jewish and Muslim parents on this thread whether they ever actually spent any time seriously considering all sides of the argument, reading medical research on both sides, making enquiries from HCPs about the the rates for later problems and repairs on botch jobs being necessary, versus the likelihood of the child needing to be cut later for medical reasons, and asking non-Jew/Muslim cut men how they feel about having had a decision made for them without their consent.

Apart from a small handful of the most secular Jewish women, is there anyone on this thread who can honestly say there was ever a point, where they were completely open minded, measured, and fully prepared to not go ahead if they could satisfy themselves that it was at best pointless and unnecessary and at worst cruel and intrusive?

How many of them would have been prepared to run the gauntlet of disapproval and shame over it from their friends, family and religious community? Are you telling me that every single person on here who has cut their son has done it after a great deal of thought and research and truly believed that it was for the best, in every sense aside from the religious one? Because I am sorry but I just do not believe you.

curlew · 11/08/2013 12:57

It is harmful because it is surgery- all surgery carries a potential risk;because is of no medical benefit; and, crucially, because it is making a significant, irrereversible change to the body of a person who is unable to consent.

SamG76 · 11/08/2013 14:20

TRF - Strangely enough, my DS's wasn't the first brit I ever went to, probably more like the 30th. I knew what it was all about, how the baby reacts, how long it takes to clear up, and I discussed it all with family members.

Oddly, I didn't commission my own MORI poll, or even ask MN members whether I should go ahead. If I had thought the procedure was genuinely harmful, I obviously wouldn't have gone ahead, but the only people claiming that seem to be a set of American men who've spent too long in therapy and need to get a life, and a group of extremely marginal Jews with a bee in their bonnet about their (soon to be ex) co-religionists.

As for this "gauntlet of disapproval", the Jewish community seems to be doing quite nicely, thank you. Maybe a dose of communal spirit would benefit other groups as well....

curlew · 11/08/2013 14:25

Still unnecessary surgery on a person unable to consent, though.

I've just started a religion which requires all its adherents to pierce their baby girl's belly buttons as soon after birth as possible.

Nobody can object, because its a matter of faith.