Page 23 | What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

FrigginRexManningDay · 2013-08-06T08:35:52+00:00

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl. One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

Pigsmummy · 09/08/2013 13:57

My husband was circumsided at a young age for medical reasons (it was too tight) and didn't find the procedure bad and recovered (playing football) very quickly after.

I think that a lot of people caring for eldery wish that more men had it done as it prevents infection and makes that area less likely to be unsavoury!

Debster7808 · 09/08/2013 14:06

Both my husband and my two sons don't seem to mind at all that someone else made a decision on their behalf to have them circumcised. Not only are they happy that they have circumcised penises, but they are also happy that the surgery to make them that way was done before they can remember it.

SamG76 · 09/08/2013 14:28

FRMD - the scenario you're suggesting couldn't happen, because you would have joined a less observant group by then. To take a non-religious comparison, suppose you were the president and public face of "Meat is Murder" and you decided to invite all your colleagues from the group to a huge hog roast for your 40 th birthday. What would your colleagues say then? The answer is that this wouldn't happen - you wouldn't - you'd resign your position, and stop being a vegetarian or at least join a less radical anti-meat group, or you'd serve up something different....

Original poster

FrigginRexManningDay · 09/08/2013 15:17

You're misunderstanding,its not about planning not to circumcise,its about assuming you would but when you are holding your newborn in your arms not being able to. Everyone expecting it,but in your head you don't want to let anyone do anything to your child.
Or to put it in your terms of reference,the head of Meat is Murder finding themselves with a pregnancy craving for steak,full on salvating over the butchers counter in tesco sort of craving.

OP posts:

lachrymavitis · 09/08/2013 15:30

I've joined this thread late but I'm surprised that Oatcake has been given a biscuit for giving a factual answer to the OP's question.

Oatcake didn't say whether they agreed with it or not.

Before attacking other people it might be worth educating yourselves.

www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

SamG76 · 09/08/2013 15:38

FRMD - In practice this doesn't happen, because as explained a brit is almost always the last thing people give up, not the first, but imagining at a stretch tht it did, your treatment would depend on the local community. Where I live, most shuls would kick you out (in the same way as Meat as Murder would chuck you out for running a hog roast!), a couple I suspect would tolerate you for a short time in case you changed your mind, and a couple would tolerate you for slightly longer, but wouldn't allow you any position of leadership or responsibility. But I'm not aware of it having happened....

Original poster

FrigginRexManningDay · 09/08/2013 16:22

Oh that makes me feel really sad,that people you knew and loved and cared for would turn their backs or tolerate you because you decide not to remove parts of your sons penis.
I would hope that the Meat is Murder crowd would understand a pregnancy craving for meat. I'm not using the hog roast example because that would imply planning and preperation whereas a pregnancy craving could take you by surprise,the feelings within yourself.

I craved chalk,I certainly did not plan to crave chalk.

OP posts:

mrsravelstein · 09/08/2013 16:48

my mother's family cut her off completely when she married a non-jew. they deny that i exist, because as far as they are concerned, my mother died at the age of 21 when she married, and therefore she did not have children. it's quite an odd experience to meet your own uncle and have him pretend that you are not stood there speaking to him. so OP it's entirely possible for the community to do exactly that.

Kungfutea · 09/08/2013 21:58

Debster

I totally understand where you're coming from. Among nearly everyone I know, it's a just a non-issue. Men are not walking around crying about the loss of their foreskin. I don't anyone who even cares and most are probably extremely glad it was done when they were newborns.

FRMD
If you are a part of an orthodox jewish community, there are many things you can do which will make you unwelcome within that community. Not circumcising your boys is one. Publicly not keeping shabbat or eating bacon sandwiches would be another or marrying a non Jew. As Sam pointed out, if you're orthodox Jewish, you'll circumcise your boys. It's a fundamental part of being orthodox (and culturally important for liberal and reform streams but I think they're less dogmatic although may be wrong) and there really is very little dissent, probably because there's no evidence that it's harmful. Being orthodox Jewish means accepting all the commandments whether they make sense or not (idea being that God knows best and it's not always for us to make sense of the rules) and this includes circumcision. Of course, no parent actually enjoys the moment of the brit milah but entering into the covenant of Abraham is joyous (if you believe in it) and the idea of not entering into this covenant is anathema to an orthodox Jew.

You may crave meat but if you are a vegetarian based on deeply held beliefs and values, you are highly unlikely to give in to your cravings. Judaism sees nothing wrong in cravings, you are judged solely on your actions.

TheRealFellatio · 10/08/2013 08:49

I am horrified that in this day and age people can still seriously feel justified in behaving like that for such ludicrous reasons mrsr.

It does Judaism (or any religion) no favours to have behaving in such a tribal, feudal, medieval way.

TheRealFellatio · 10/08/2013 08:50

to have people behaving in such a way - sorry!

Kungfutea · 10/08/2013 10:10

I'm not justifying cutting people off (and 'Judaism' is not some kind of homogenous religion which dictates cutting people off due to marrying out, in fact, it often happens in the bible - look at the story of Ruth and Boaz who are meant to be the great grandparents of King David) but I do think that Jewish communities still have a mutual trauma from all the years where people have tried to wipe them out - there were still pogroms in Poland in the 1950s against holocaust survivors! That's why defenses such as making marrying out almost the ultimate sin were developed.

These days, within more liberal streams, marrying out is tolerated, especially if the family practice judaism despite one of the couple not being Jewish. It's still not accepted among the orthodox although most wouldn't go as far as to pretend a loved one is dead.

Sallyingforth · 10/08/2013 10:28

Sorry but I can't accept that because an adult male doesn't complain about having suffered MGM as a baby, that makes it all right. It just means that he hasn't ever known anything different and so he accepts it as normal.
He has not been given the opportunity to know what his body is like in its natural state or whether to have part of it cut off. That should be every human being's right.

curlew · 10/08/2013 10:38

Interesting that girls can be part of the Covenant of Abraham without having bits removed from them.....or is it that they aren't really anyway.
What's that men's prayer about thanking god for not making him a woman ?

Kungfutea · 10/08/2013 14:20

Glad that you've decided what other adults should think and feel sallyingforth Do you realise how patronizing you're being??????

curlew yep, it's sexist. The bit about thanking god for not making him a woman is true - but it's been changed in the reform/liberal prayer books.

curlew · 10/08/2013 14:46

Not patronising at all- merely common sense.

And I find the suggestion that "faith" or "tradition" trumps all arguments deeply flawed. People do hideous things in the name of faith and tradition - should we just hand them a free pass?

Primafacie · 10/08/2013 18:18

And I find the suggestion that "faith" or "tradition" trumps all arguments deeply flawed. People do hideous things in the name of faith and tradition - should we just hand them a free pass?

Curlew, no one on this thread is arguing that faith trumps all arguments. The pros and cons of, and people's reason to opt for, circumcision in a variety of societies, have been explained over and over. You are evidently not receptive to them. Please have the last word now so you may win the thread. I can suggest some buzzwords if it helps :)

curlew · 10/08/2013 18:45

Not a matter of last words.

I understand what people are saying about faith and tradition and I understand why they consider circumcising boy babies essential. I am just saying that faith and tradition are not good reasons to perform painful non medically necessary surgery on a person unable to give consent. I can't think of a single other circumstance where this would be considered acceptable. I know that people get upset when parallels are drawn with FGM, but the arguments used by the proponents of FGM and infant circumcision are exactly the same. Faith, tradition, culture, being accepted by the "tribe"......Only the extent of the surgery is different.

Sallyingforth · 10/08/2013 20:47

Glad that you've decided what other adults should think and feel sallyingforth
That's quite funny Kungfutea.
It's actually his parents who have forced on him how he should feel.
I'm the one who wants to give him the choice.

Kungfutea · 10/08/2013 22:13

You decided that men who say that they are pleased that they were circumcised as newborns just don't know any better.

Of course that's patronizing! Why do you know better than them how they feel!? THEY'RE the ones who apparently have been denied this opportunity - and yet THEY'RE the ones saying that they're pleased with their situation. But, oh no, sallyingforth has decided that they don't understand that they have been mutilated, poor misguided little souls.

My husband is finding this quite hilarious, the idea that apparently he is only happy about having been circumcised as a newborn because he has never known what is was like without!! He used some rather choice words to describe what he'd say to someone who actually dared suggest such a thing to his face - let's just say that patronizing might capture the gist of it :)

Do you actually know any circumcised men, sallyingforth? Have you tried out your theory that actually they've been mutilated and denied the opportunity of knowing what it's like to be whole (and how do you even know what it's like unless you're a man who has been sexually active and then circumcised!)?

I suggest you find some circumcised men and see what they think (I mean a random sample rather than googling to find an extreme group who may be saying what you want to hear). Try out your theory on them and then perhaps report back what they say to you. It should make interesting reading.

Kungfutea · 10/08/2013 22:22

Curlew

Didn't you say that you'd consider operating on a disfiguring facial birthmark even if not medically necessary? Or at the very least you'd understand parents who did it. Or parents who put braces on their children before they're at the age of consent (that's bloody painful and for what? straight teeth FGS!). Or parents who pin ears back. Or even parents who put in cochlear implants (huge debate about denying children the right to be part of deaf culture).

If I saw any EVIDENCE (rather than emotion or 'logic' that if it wasn't meant to be there it wouldn't etc) that circumcising newborns is, on balance, harmful, I wouldn't do it regardless of culture. But the evidence simply isn't there and having read through this thread from the start, no one has presented any real evidence that it's harmful, just that it's not beneficial enough to be routine for everyone (fair enough).

But since the evidence is that it's not harmful and there is a window of opportunity when newborn to do it almost painlessly in a simple and straightforward procedure then I have no problem conforming, in this case, with my culture.

If I ever have a boy, I'd reassess the evidence. If it hasn't changed and it still appears that it's not harmful and, indeed, has some benefits then I'd circumcise.

Yes, both female genital mutilation and male circumcision have cultural and even religious roots. It doesn't make them the same. The key difference is that male circumcision does not prevent a boy fulfilling his sexuality or impede on any bodily function. It is also not intended as a means of controlling his sexuality, especially since both traditional Judaism and Islam are patriarchal societies. That's the difference and that is why female genital mutilation is illegal and male circumcision isn't (at least the lawmakers get it even if people on this thread don't!).

Primafacie · 10/08/2013 22:23

Only the extent of the surgery is different.

This, put in very simple terms, is entirely untrue. Please direct me to any proven health benefit of FGM if you disagree.

You really should read the WHO position statements on FGM and circumcision so you understand the fundamental difference between them. There are links up thread.

Kungfutea · 10/08/2013 22:33

Just to add to the links to the scientific evidence demonstrating benefits of infant circumcision and why it's NOT harmful (not advocating for routine circumcision - just further demonstrating that it is not a harmful practice). This is a summary of a number of meta-analyses.
(note that they actually provide references)

www.webmd.com/cancer/cervical-cancer/news/20110106/male-circumcision-cuts-womens-cervical-cancer-risk

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 10/08/2013 23:13

(note that they actually provide references)
Oh, look. Request the references, means just that!...

Emailed From Professor Goldman, (A Jew) Head of and one of the many Jewish directors of The Circumcision Resource Centre I linked to earlier in the thread:

I suggest that you ask the pro-circumcision person to watch the videos on our website. www.circumcision.org Then ask, "Would you volunteeer to change places with the infant?" If not, then the person ignores the most widely accepted guide to ethical conduct, the Golden Rule.

Please see references and links below.

Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.
Executive Director
Circumcision Resource Center
Author Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma
Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective

Twitter Facebook (please like us and share)

For references, see www.circumcision.org/studies.htm.

Here are some links on circumcision harm.

Fine-Touch Pressure Thresholds in the Adult Penis

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x/pdf

Male Circumcision Decreases Penile Sensitivity as Measured in a Large Cohort

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

The Prepuce:Taylor

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410X.1996.85023.x/abstract

The Prepuce: Cold and Taylor

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1034.x/pdf

The Psychological Impact of Circumcision

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1093.x/pdf

Male Circumcision: Pain, Trauma and Psychosexual Sequelae

www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

A Preliminary Poll of Men Circumcised in Infancy or Childhood

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1085.x/pdf

The Effect of Male Circumcision on the Sexual Enjoyment of the Female Partner

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1079.x/pdf

Circumcision Associated with Adult Difficulty in Identifying and Expressing Feelings and More Likely Use of Erectile Dysfunction Drugs

www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819f10dd04dc1e19fb&pi=4

Circumcision Associated with Sexual Difficulties in Men and Women

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947/

Neonatal Circumcision Reconsidered

www.cirp.org/library/psych/rhinehart1/

Physical, Sexual, and Psychologial Effects of Male Infant Circumcision

epublications.bond.edu.au/greg_boyle/14/

Here are links on public policy and debate.

Circumcision Policy: A Psychosocial Perspective

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724127/?tool=pubmed

Doctors Opposing Circumcision Medical Ethics Report

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/statement11.html

Doctors Opposing Circumcision Human Rights Report

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/statement09.html

Involuntary Circumcision: The Legal Issues

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1063.x/pdf

Informed Consent for Neonatal Circumcision: An Ethical and Legal Conundrum

www.cirp.org/library/legal/conundrum/

A Rose by Any Other Name? Rethinking the Similarities and Differences Between Male and Female Genital Cutting historyofcircumcision.net/images/stories/resources/rd-rose07.pdf

A Cost Utility Analysis of Neonatal Circumcision

www.ppge.ufrgs.br/ats/disciplinas/2/vanhowe-2004.pdf

Here are links on HIV claims.

Sub-Saharan African Randomised Clinical Trials into Male Circumcision and HIV Transmission: Methodological, Ethical, and Legal Concerns

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22320006

Male Circumcision and HIV Prevention: Insufficient Evidence and Neglected External Validity (This article includes the endorsement of dozens of professionals.)

physics.georgetown.edu/~rmca/Elephant_in_the_Hospital/Circumcision_and_HIV_Prevention_2010_Green_AJPM.pdf

Sub-Saharan African Randomised Clinical Trials into Male Circumcision and HIV Transmission: Methodological, Ethical and Legal Concerns

www.salem-news.com/fms/pdf/2011-12_JLM-Boyle-Hill.pdf

Male Circumcision is Not the HIV "Vaccine" We Have Been Waiting For!

www.futuremedicine.com/doi/full/10.2217/17469600.2.3.193?prevSearch=authorsfield%253A%2528Green%252C%2BLawrence%2BW%2529&searchHistoryKey=&

How the Circumcision Solution in Africa Will Increase HIV Infections

www.publichealthinafrica.org/index.php/jphia/article/view/jphia.2011.e4

The Cost to Circumcise Africa

www.icgi.org/Downloads/IAS/McAllister.pdf

A Myth That Kills: AIDS Industry Feeds on Fear

fumento.com/aids/aids2008.html

Political Determinants of Variable Aetiology Resonance: Explaining the African AIDS Epidemics