What exactly is the advantage of circumcision and why is their such insistence?

[FrigginRexManningDay]

I was watching 'What to expect when you're expecting' last night and one of the male characters was insisting on circumcision for his unborn son,which turned out to be a girl.

One of the reasons he agreed with was making the penis less sensitive. I don't understand the reasons behind it. AFAIK its not healthier or cleaner. I understand it being done for medical reasons of course,but it just seems unnecessary to be so routine in America.

I think generalisations about the Jewish community are a bit dodgy. Perhaps it would be more accurate to talk about communities. And some of those communities are re-evaluating and re-interpreting traditions...

intactnews.org/node/142/1327690351/progressive-rabbis-creating-jewish-covenant-without-circumcision

If you google "Jews against circumcision" there are loads of hits. Either those 10 people are really busy, or more than 10 Jews are against circumcision.

Thank you for that link. It has some very hopeful sounding quotes.
It would be very good if some prominent Muslims could do the same.

breatheslowly What is the difference between someone who has given up the religion and one who is an atheist but continues with bits of it? They both "come from a minority persecuted from millenia".

For me there is no difference. Judaism has multiple branches much like Christanity and Islaam.

For me Jewish identity goes beyond religion.
Shared traditions and culture are much valued.

I would never critise anybody for not following Judaic law as this is not the only thing that gives you the right to call yourself Jewish.

My family is Reform, we are not strict in our adherance to religious practice.

There are some things we don't do, fundamental things such as not eating cheeseburgers , respecting Chabbat when possible and holding a bris for our male babies.

I apologise if that offends.

^ Doesn't read correctly

I meant that we don't eat cheeseburgers but we do respect Chabbat and hold a bris for our male babies.

I was explaining why circumcision is an important cultural identifier in Jewish culture. Not that any one individual may or may not come from any specific minority.

Circumcision is so important to the Jewish people that it is one of only two commandments for which the punishment of kareit (being "cut-off") is applied if they are not fulfilled.

You may question the health benefits (although you'd be wrong as they are real) or even the ethics of circumcising babies but the cultural importance to the vast majority of Jews, particularly those who actively participate in Jewish life, is beyond doubt. More than once in Jewish history, during times of persecution from the Greeks and Romans to the Nazis, rulers have recognized that circumcision was at the core of Jewish identity, and have tried to ban it, often on pain of death. They recognized its key importance.

So, to summarise:

1. Health benefits: some benefits such as reduced STIs (HIV, syphillis, herpes, HPV, reduced infantile UTIs, reduced penile cancer, reduced need to perform circumcision later due to foreskin issues. But benefits small so probably not enough to routinely circumcise, especially where hiv not prevalent, but still outweigh risks

2. Negatives: complications of procedure - which are far far less if you do it as a newborn when it is very safe, possibly less sexual sensitivty - but this hasn't been proven.

3. Window of opportunity to do procedure as a newborn when procedure straightforward and far safer. This means that if circumcision may be on the cards, better to opt for it as a newborn.

4. Strong cultural and/or religious reasons which if said baby is part of such a culture could be important for baby's wellbeing (just like if you removed a disfiguring birthmark).

Hope that explains why parents who are just as educated and enlightened as others (and let's face it, the Jewish community in the UK and US is actually more educated than the average) and who love thier children just as much as you love yours and who are not barbaric brain washed fanatics would choose to circumcise.

You're not superior because you don't choose to circumcise yours. It's just a different choice.

Might have been a hygiene issue with early Jews in desert?????

Who knows about hygiene in the desert?

The religious reason why it all started is the convenant with Abraham.

I wonder why Christians don't circumcise if it's something Jesus did? Actually, why don't Chrisitians keep the Old Testament rules?

Actually, why don't Chrisitians keep the Old Testament rules?

Acts 15:10:
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Or, more prosaically, because the early Christians were keen to recruit from gentiles (who would be unlikely to want to understand the need for weird rules like mutilating their children).

KungFu, I think (though not an expert by any stretch of the imagination) that the New Testament fundamentally changed the relationship between man and god: whereas the Old T was all about inculcating the fear of god's wrath in man, the NT is about a kinder, merciful, forgiving God 2.0. Out with 'an eye for an eye', in with 'present the other cheek'. So a lot of the OT's message is not compatible with this new version of God.

Interestingly, this all stems from the fact that (at the end of the OT era), God looked at his people, didn't like what he saw, so sent his son (Jesus) to teach us how to love thy neighbour. Then he allowed his son to be persecuted and to die on the cross, so that his death would redeem all of our sins.

In keeping with the spirit of this thread, I think I have to point out that (the Christian) God was a cruel father, and quite possibly narcissist. :)

Yes I've always thought that too Prima

Mind you, I thought the Noah's Ark thing was a bit off as well.

There's a good summary of the Old Testament/New Testament divide re circumcision on www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/circumcision.html

Perhaps it's worth remembering that many non-religious people will treat their babies in ways that the babies themselves are too young to understand, and which the babies cannot give informed consent to, because they want to start the process of socialising infants and making them part of the wider community.

(Why am I thinking about Gina Ford now, I wonder?)

So according to Jewish law if you don't remove parts of your newborn boys body you will be cut off from the community? That seems very extreme and puts people under pressure to put their newborns through a procedure that they may not feel 100% comfortable with.

"Perhaps it's worth remembering that many non-religious people will treat their babies in ways that the babies themselves are too young to understand, and which the babies cannot give informed consent to, because they want to start the process of socialising infants and making them part of the wider community"

Doesn't usually involve surgery, though......

In Judaism it is a traditional ritual practice which symbolises God's covenant with his people. Some Reform and Progressive Jews place more stress on the inner covenant made in the heart, less on the outward symbol of cirumcision. As a non-observant Jew it is not a practice which I - or my similarly non-observant Jewish husband - follow.

Nonetheless historically, as the descendant of German Jews many of whom died in the Holocaust. I am very aware of debates which seek to diminish the full humanity of Jewish people. For example the demonisation of Jews as Christ-killers.

Clearly it gives some posters a perverse pleasure to regard themselves as morally superior to observant Jews, or indeed those who follow traditional Muslim practice. No doubt many of the Aryans who played minor (or major) parts in genocide in the 1930s were also wedded to a sense of their own superior humanity.

As my final posting in this debate, I simply wish point out that it can be harmful in a culturally diverse society, to focus on particular, limited differences in behaviour and use these to justify the notion of your own superiority.

FRMD - nothing to do with Jewish law, as generally interpreted. It's really the other way round - As a rule, people who decide not to perform a brit would be leaving/ have left the community already, at least in the UK. Eg there aren't Chassidim who suddenly decide not to do a brit. They would give up Judaism, marry out, and have nothing to do with their community well before they made the decision.....

Completely off-thread now (the circumcision stuff was getting a bit circular anyhow!) but don't Christians quote the Old Testament anyhow? Like all the stuff about homosexuality, 10 commandments etc? How do they decide which bits they'll keep and which bits they won't.

Christians do cherry pick. Homosexuality is wrong, wearing mixed fibres is fine.
Just as irrational as Jews!

All faiths seem to me to have an unhealthy interest in controlling sex, sexuality and genitals. Very odd.

Really Curlew? What about Hinduism?

OK but if my family were Jewish and I decided that I did not want to remove parts of my DS penis,what would happen? Within the community I mean.

Also what about premature babies who obviously would need to wait to have a circumcision?

FRMD - if you need to wait, you wait. You wouldn't do a brit at any time if dangerous.

The point about the community is that you wouldn't be a part of it unless you were comfortable. If you were a chassid who loved cheeseburgers, you'd stop being a chassid, join a reform shul, and go to MacD. You wouldn't sit in MacD in Stamford Hill wondering why you were getting disapproving looks from passers by.

Similarly, if you were intending not to have a brit you would have left the observant community some time ago, and you'd either give up entirely (like some of the posters) or join a group that didn't mind. All streams of Judaism in the UK, even the most progressive, believe in the brit, though.

Sorry,I should make it clear,if I was observant and I had a baby boy but could not face having part of his penis removed when it came down to it,all my family expected me to do it,but I couldn't what would happen?
So if a Jewish boy is premature and kept in hospital for several weeks would he still be circumcised when the 'window of opertunity' has passed?

I can see that the issue of circumcision is a highly charged issue, especially for those who are not so used to it. However, for many families in the world where circumcision is common, people have a more matter of fact approach to it.
Having had both my boys circumcised, I can say that it was such a simple procedure, which they coped with extremely well. What they went through, was not far off their innoculation jabs.
I think the fuss is way overdone, and most other mums who chose to have their sons circumcised would agree with me that it is not as traumatic for babies as we had previously feared, or as people often make out. In fact, my second boy slept throughout his circumcision, and seemed fairly unphased throughout the one week healing process.
I just don't understand the fuss that the topic of circumcision seems to incite.

But it's not about the trauma - which hopefully in many cases will be as little as with your sons.
It's the fact that a perfectly healthy part of a baby's body is being cut off and irrevocably removed without his agreement.
But clearly no-one here is going to change their mind.