To think that God wouldn't mind DB being gay

[Thepowerof3]

My DM has found religion in the last couple of years and has become quite vocal on certain issues including gay marriage. My DB is gay and whilst she accepts him she doesn't believe he should be able to marry, even lobbied her local mp to vote against it. I'm no theologist but surely if you believe God created man then he created homosexuals as well as heterosexuals and if not then DB is somehow choosing to be gay?

ididabrave, no real need to look at that specific link. There is loads on this, arguing all sorts. Still, quite interesting! Would make for an interesting Jeremy Kyle, the MIL/SIL thing.

It's a regular c of e, not too high not too happy clappy

I can't wait to go to hell - it'll be full of lesbians!

thepower, do you agree with her?

If you don't, we're giving you good plausible ways to argue against her. But, honestly, the best thing to do is to keep on explaing to her what she'd doing here.

If you do - why are we still talking?

at winning. Nice and toasty for us Brits, too.

I can understand you are trying to get your head around what your mother believes and that this is NOT a simple thing for you to understand

If I can ever help please PM me cos I know it must feel hard at times.

No I don't agree and I don't understand

This is an old letter that has been doing the rounds for a while but always worth a mention when (some) Christians quote Leviticus at you:

On her radio show, Dr. Laura said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Schlesinger, written by a US man, and posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as quite informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

1. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

1. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

1. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

1. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

1. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

1. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

1. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

James M. Kauffman,

Ed.D. Professor Emeritus,

Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia

P.S. (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian.)

Well, I don't understand her either, and many peple feel the same!

Gay unions- fine. Gay marriage in a church - up to the church in question.
I am not convinced that God gives too much of a shite either way, but proselytisers of ANY sort (religious nutters or certain types of activists) are tedious.

OP, if you want to know what your mother thinks, can you not ask her? Or does she just really say "No, I don't understand my own thoughts, please ask that man over their with the dog's collar?"

over THERE. Fucking arse.

Leviticus is NOT BINDING on Christians. It's just some rules that some ancient Jewish people once wrote down/lived by. The Bible is not one homogenous book - it's made up of old, obsolete laws, allegories, poems, as well as the words of Jesus. Anything written in the Old Testament that contradicts what Jesus said is a write-off, because the coming of Jesus created a new covenant. Basically, everyone was getting it all arse about tit before so God sent Jesus to show them what's what.

Jesus also had a lot to say about people who were overly moralistic, preachy and smug (just read what he said to the Pharisees - it was basically stop being a wanker and mind your own business. Can't remember exactly where, in Matthew somewhere). Maybe point that bit out to your mum!

I also think it's obvious that some people just ARE gay and were made that way. I know a lot of priests and none of them could give a tinker's toss about anyone's sexuality (and a fair few of them are gay).

The irony of that last post struck me

AS you all were

Falcon I read gay unions as gay unicorns

If god is real and he created us all. If he didn't want people to be gay he therefore wouldn't have made it an option. He would have made sure everyone was only attracted to the opposite sex.

I honestly dont see why people care about who other people sleep with. I see happier gay couples than I do straight ones.

they are not best placed to dispense advice
she's not an MNer for sure...

really sad that she's adopted these ideas. Not Christianity as such, just these discriminatory ideas with respect to women and gay people. There are churches which reject such ideas, have had women ministers for years and will marry gay couples now they're allowed - you might be able to find someone from one of those who could help you.

Do you remember those 'what would Jesus do?' wristbands that were popular with Christians?
Well, I think that if Jesus was here today he would be offended by bigoted views towards others, so racism, homophobia, our attitudes towards refugees, violence masked as fundamentalism etc.
my DB is gay, and I believe my God loves him. If my brother decides to marry (and I really hope he does as his partner is lovely and brings out the best in him) I will be there celebrating, and will be very thankful for the love he has found.

If he were real, I think he'd have far more important things to worry about and would be rather bemused by all the fuss about gay marriage when there are children living in poverty.

I am a practicing catholic and my best friend is a gay man. I love him dearly and I am delighted that he has started dating one of my friends, however if they wanted to marry in a Church I don't think I would be comfortable with it tbh. very happy with the civil partnership set up and have been to a lesbian wedding and will be going to a male civil partnership next year.

beals I was thinking of that as I read this thread. Always had me in stitches.

I quite agree with LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy about a million times about context. I recently saw an interesting documentary, For the bible tells me so, . Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember it saying that Leviticus was talking about a time when it was believed that men put babies in women with their seed, without any knowledge of a woman having eggs, and with a decimated population, sperm was not for squandering. I really recommend it (it's on netflix) for revealing how the right-wing CHristians have used the bible to preach against homosexuality, when in reality the bible says very little on the matter.

Hmm. I'm an atheist, and one of the (many) things that strikes me as daft about religion is the presumption that anyone could know what God thinks. I know left-wing people who think God is a socialist, right-wing people who think he is a free-marketeer, some people who think he hates homosexuals, others who think he's cool with homosexuals. White South Africans used to think He made whites to rule over blacks, and many Americans believe that God supports the US in all its military interventions. Well, you get the idea. People make God in their own image and to justify their own self-interest. What is odd is that they don't even realise they're doing it.

catsize! Im gasping with horror!! Re Ruth and Naomi, their relationship was that of a loving MIL and DIL. I recognise that that is a rare thing on mumsnet but lesbians- never!

Re. David and Jonathon the Hebrew word used for the love between them was not the Hebrew word which is used to express sexual love, but merely brotherly love.

My understanding is God loves everyone regardless of sexual orientation, but that sexuality is only to be expressed within marriage.

Marriage in the bible is described as being between a man and a woman for the procutation of children.

I'm with you Brave thing!

Ididabravebravething, Neither do I think she is improvising to suit her needs

My comment was in reference to this post from
LRDYaDumayuShtoTiKrasiviy

'No woman should lie with another woman'

Despite my lack of interest in Biblical literalism, I would like to know where this quotation is from!

which is why I said earthmother was improvising to suit her prejudices.

Ahhh.. this debate again! I wonder if it's the same OP with a different Moniker this time.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

in the bible there is a passage that says '(one of the disciples - cant remember which one - lay with another male one, 'as a man lies with his wife' There was no issue with that. It just was what happened.

So no God doesn't mind. God doesn't give a hoot!

No woman should lie with another woman

I bet a man wrote that :)

period, I think a woman wrote it actually, further up the thread! Pretty sure it ain't in the Big Book. And anyway, from my limited knowledge of men, lots of them like women lying with women.