To be angry on behalf of my friend's daughter?

[GiantHaystacks]

I have just come back from my friend's house and feel really pissed off on behalf of her dd1. My friend got married to a guy she met at university, they had two dds and both became successful in their respective careers. He became so successful that he decided to reward himself with a 20 year old new wife who was a catwalk model. He then proved how much he loved his dds by moving to Paris, thereby ensuring he had fuck-all to do with their daily existence. He does, however, make himself feel better by inundating the dds with a slew of expensive toys and clothes as that obviously compensates for him being a self-absorbed prick.

The reason I feel angry is that my friend's dd2 is too young to fully understand what is going on but her dd1 (10) refuses to acknowledge the gifts her father sends her and has to be dragged kicking and screaming to visit him for the school holidays (where he again gets to prove how fundamentally decent he is by spending throwing money at her). My friend is making her dd1 attend counselling sessions about this and is busy devising strategies to 'ensure dd1 maintains a good relationship with her father', even though this comes at some personal cost to her own relationship with her daughter and even though she has been left with all the hard work involved in bringing up children. I think she should be pleased that her dd1 can see her father for what he is and has the self-respect not to be bought off with gifts and holidays. Why should dd1 be forced to spend time with someone who has lost her respect? Why does dd1 have to be counselled out of following her own instincts in order to placate her father's need to feel like he's still a good guy?

I feel so angry that this girl has a strong sense of self-respect but it is being ignored. It's horrible that a 10 year old is already being gaslighted and by her own parents too.

You are welcome to search my history, I don't post nasty things about my friends. I would be sensitive if it was an issue with a friends children. I feel it's okay to give the OP a flaming because this is not her problem.

When I read your OP I was ready to say YABU but I wasn?t going to have a go because your heart seemed to be in the right place. Then I read a few of your subsequent posts and I firmly agreed with you. Especially because you?re not going to get involved but feel upset.

At 10, the girl is old enough to have her own opinion, which should be respected. I can also see that the mother may be so conditioned to accepting poor treatment that she?s conditioning her own daughter to do it too. That?s horrible and I guess she doesn?t intend it.

If it was any of my business, which it?s not , I?d be concerned that by forcing contact, and worse, counselling to come to terms to ?negative? feelings, the mother may be storing up resentment between her DD and herself. That sounds awful, because I think your friend?s heart is mostly in the right place too.

Is she having counselling ? And if so, what?s she being told? That?s a serious question. Because I feel her 10 year old DD?s attitude to him is rather more mature and logical than hers.

It is really important and also very difficult to try to maintain your children?s relationship with the NRP. My friend did the same in similar circumstances . I think they were similar ages to your friend?s DDs when he left.

There was that lavishing of goods ? though TBF to him that less a cynical move and more that he didn?t have a lot of time or imagination.

The elder daughter hates her father for leaving them for another woman. The younger one was too young when he walked out to feel the same so adores him and the OW because they give love ? and stuff.

My friend eventually stopped forcing her elder one to visit her dad and his partner. The DD is 19 now. It resulted in some bumpy teenage years between my friend and her DD which was tragic, as my friend was forcing the contact through the best of intentions.

I hope my friend and her DD will be okay. The relationship is getting distant because DD1 is now at uni and it?s natural to grow away from your parents then. But there?s also the relationship between DD1 and DD2 ? who DD1 blames for being compliant.

All I know is that though he?s not the world?s most terrible person, he?s a selfish shit who doesn?t deserve any of them.

Sorry to be so verbose. But I found your post really interesting. I bet there?ve been loads of X posts while I?ve been rambling

That's interesting LimitedPeriod but mainly because you are saying that your friend stopped the contact and now has problems in her relationships with her mother, father, stepmother and sister. Do you not think that perhaps if her mother had tried to deal with this in a constructive way, say counseling, to solve the problem years ago this may not have happened?

She might now have a better relationship with her whole family and wouldn't resent her sister or be bitter at her parents?

I know you were posting in support of the OP but your friend stopped the contact and didn't deal with these feelings and now her daughter has fractured relationships with her whole family. Now that's hardly the best argument for the OP's approach is it? Your friend did it and now everything is a bit shit?

Its a difficult one, my dd 11 would choose to see her father a lot less than she does. She has no memory of living with him we have been apart for 10 years. She sees him every couple of weeks .

He isn't a bad man just feckless he tries to buy her off ,will say he is going to do something and not do it. Has a series of girlfriends.I deal with it by letting her have an opinion on him she will say things like dad lies .I will say yes he does sometimes that is part of who he is and its annoying,

She loves him, the real him flaws and all. He is her dad the only one she is ever going to have ,I wish he would be better but he isn't .A relationship as long is there is no abuse is to be encouraged .It would have been so easy to write him out of all our lives he is a twat ,even he knows that .But I love my Dad warts and all so I want my children to have that opportunity.

I have two DDs by 10 both, in their very very different ways, had a pretty strong idea about adult relationships, how people ought to behave and how they liked to be treated.

I can see that at 10 this child is just too young to have a say in not going to her farther's, but I'm with the OP I can't see counselling is going to do much.

Either the councillor will listen and her mum will stop the sessions or the councillor will keep pushing her to see her dad and convince her adults don't listen and don't respect her point of view.

You will not change a stubborn 10year olds mind. I know, I was the most bloody minded 9-10yearold on the planet, DD2 wasn't much better.

If we are running scenarios.

What happens if the elder child's wishes are upheld?
The younger daughter goes to Paris a couple of times every year.

What is the older child going to think and do?

It's cruel to make a child spend time with a man she doesn't like, even if he is her father.

Unfortunately, people rarely take children's views and feelings seriously - as we can see from many of the responses on this thread.

Hackmum, loads of kids don't like their parents for one reason or another but when they're resident parents that makes not one jot of difference. Neither should it to an NRP if they are not abusive.

Bridget my friend didn't stop the contact between her DD and her father. She bent over backwards to encourage it. She didn't opt for counselling for her DD; why would she? It wasn't an unreasonable position for her DD to take.

It was her DD's decision aged about 15/16 to cut contact with her father, which I think should be respected, don't you?

Her DD has some issues with her upbringing - as do we all.

I wasn't going to bring it up, so forgive me, but much earlier on you said something like most children hold grudges against their parents and harbour plans to run away. I'm paraphrasing there, but really?

I must have been quite an unimaginative child or maybe one with an idyllic upbringing, because I didn?t.

hackmum
"It's cruel to make a child spend time with a man she doesn't like, even if he is her father."

Do females and mothers get a pass on that then?
Do you also include grandparents, teachers, dentists, doctors, nurses in that?

Limitedperiod, you said your friend 'eventually stopped' contact. What I'm saying is that it may be as a result of this that your friend's daughter has such unhappy relationships now. If your friend had tried something like counseling or therapy the outcome may have been different.

She didn't send her daughter to counseling, why would she?

You said in your last post that not only does she not have a relationship with her father her relationship with her mother and sister is strained and she cannot accept her sister's decision to have relationship with her father and his wife.

Do you not think this might have all been avoided if these issues had been dealt with rather than taking the easy option of simply caving in and stopping contact? She took the easy option at the time but long term it has not worked out.

But sorry, you are wrong to say 'why would she send her daughter to counseling' when you've detailed yourself all the reasons why this might have been a good idea.

Bridget

I said this: My friend eventually stopped forcing her elder one to visit her dad and his partner

Which isn't the same as what you said I said.

Maybe I'm muddled, but I don't ever think it's a good idea to make people do things to make you feel better, particularly if they're kids and you're an adult.

Do you?

It's exactly what you said. Even if we worded it slightly differently.

I don't think this mother is making her daughter see her father to make her feel better. I think she's trying to do what will be best for her daughter in the long term which is to develop healthy relationships with all her family.

And you haven't explained why what your friend did had a better outcome? Her daughter now has fractured relationships, not just with her father but with her whole family. How does this demonstrate that stopping the contact had a good outcome?

I don't understand you bridget.

My friend didn't cut the relationship with the father. Far from it. Her DD did, even though her mother tried to encourage it. That's created a rift between mother and daughter and the other sister. I find it strange that you can't understand that.

The DD in the OP doesn't want to see her dad. That might be sad, but she's 10, which I'd say was getting on for an age where you can say what you want.

Or don't you think that?

Limited what I'm saying is that your friends daughter doesn't have problems in her relationships with her family because contact wasn't stopped. The issue with her sister and objection to her relationship with her father would still be there, she still wouldn't get on with her father.

The problems she has in her relationships are the fact that when her parents split she had a lot of negative, unpleasant emotions and was very hurt. Rather than dealing with this through counseling or family therapy her family effectively ignored it and allowed the problem to fester until it came to the point where it is now and she has good relationships with none of her family.

It's totally possible that if her emotions around the divorce had been dealt with when the split happened and she was given more support, particularly in regards to her sister's right to see her father, she wouldn't be in the sad position she's in today.

And no, when it's something so serious and life changing as cutting off your father I don't think you can make that sort of decision at 10.

Bridget with respect, you know my friend's daughter less than I do, and considerably less than my friend does.

Anyway, she's an adult now, so what we think is irrelevant.

I believe the girl in the OP is at an age where her wishes should be respected.

I had a happy life at 10 so didn't have to make difficult decisions. I hope you did too. But if i had to, I would be able to articulate my thoughts, and from your posts I'd expect you'd be able to too.

Limited you said yourself that your friends daughter was unhappy and had poor relationships with all her family. You did yourself up like a kipper tbh.

It's funny that in this country we don't think kids are old enough to decide not to see a NRP but we do think they're old enough to accept criminal responsibility for their behaviour.

Rum lot, the English.

10 IS too young - if father had stayed in the house & had an affair with said cat walk model 10 yr old daughter would have had to live with it.No one has perfect parents, but they are your parents & short of abuse then it is better to have contact. Talking to grown up children of divorce, even the ones that hated their dads for what they did to their mums ,seem remarkably pleased when their dads show they are thinking of them.

StarBallBunny Sun 28-Jul-13 16:49:05

"Either the councillor will listen and her mum will stop the sessions or the councillor will keep pushing her to see her dad and convince her adults don't listen and don't respect her point of view"

This sounds very unlike any counsellor I have ever come across? Are you basing this on actual experience of how counsellors work?

No, I'm basing it on the extra ordinary certainty that 10 year old girls have, that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong.

I was beyond stubborn at that age, DD2 was no better.