To be angry on behalf of my friend's daughter?

[GiantHaystacks]

I have just come back from my friend's house and feel really pissed off on behalf of her dd1. My friend got married to a guy she met at university, they had two dds and both became successful in their respective careers. He became so successful that he decided to reward himself with a 20 year old new wife who was a catwalk model. He then proved how much he loved his dds by moving to Paris, thereby ensuring he had fuck-all to do with their daily existence. He does, however, make himself feel better by inundating the dds with a slew of expensive toys and clothes as that obviously compensates for him being a self-absorbed prick.

The reason I feel angry is that my friend's dd2 is too young to fully understand what is going on but her dd1 (10) refuses to acknowledge the gifts her father sends her and has to be dragged kicking and screaming to visit him for the school holidays (where he again gets to prove how fundamentally decent he is by spending throwing money at her). My friend is making her dd1 attend counselling sessions about this and is busy devising strategies to 'ensure dd1 maintains a good relationship with her father', even though this comes at some personal cost to her own relationship with her daughter and even though she has been left with all the hard work involved in bringing up children. I think she should be pleased that her dd1 can see her father for what he is and has the self-respect not to be bought off with gifts and holidays. Why should dd1 be forced to spend time with someone who has lost her respect? Why does dd1 have to be counselled out of following her own instincts in order to placate her father's need to feel like he's still a good guy?

I feel so angry that this girl has a strong sense of self-respect but it is being ignored. It's horrible that a 10 year old is already being gaslighted and by her own parents too.

Yes OP you are being unreasonable. My dad too moved country when I was around the same age but my parents were still married (?!~?!??). When dad moved mum would always bitch and moan about how much of a bad man he was. He began drinking more and more. I now wonder years later if this had anything to do with the vitriol he was met with from me whenever he came back to the UK. Nothing's ever been repaired and I'm left being annoyed at my mother for always casting a massive shadow over our relationship. No matter who the parent they should always be encouraged to have some kind of relationship unless they're in danger...

It's really none of your business op. I think you need to mind your own!

Of course you can't imagine it with your DD because you and your DD aren't the ones going through this.

If you were, you might realise that as much as your DD is angry, she still loves her Dad...and that going to see him is actually the best thing for her.

Of course you might not think that either

But this girl's Mum does and she knows her best.

The dd1 isn't in danger from the father but is being treated like a fashion accessory. As I stated before - her father has the financial freedom to live wherever he likes but has chosen another country. Why does he get to have the relationship with his dds on his terms but not theirs? Also, dd1 is not having a childish tantrum about going to bed on time - she knows that presents and money do not equal love and respect.

None of your business i think you should keep out of it. sounds like the mum is doing her best for her children.

So basically we are saying that children have to be forced into having a relationship with their parents even if that goes against all their wishes. Why? Parents are not automatically worthy of respect. A parent is not automatically entitled to a relationship with their child.

I am keeping out of it. As I have stated before, I am angry on behalf of the daughter, I am frustrated that she is being ignored, but I am not interfering in any way.

no bad parents are definitely not entitled to their children but at this age, no matter the intelligence of this little girl (i admire her values), she should be encouraged to spend time with her dad because put the other way her mother could be in the firing line in the future for discouraging it.

It's horrible. But to be honest I think the mother's attitude is far healthier than yours.

TBH, she might know that there were other problems in the marriage (including possibly her own unhappiness in it) which has allowed her to come to terms with it more easily and she is trying to help her daughter accept it too.

I think if the mother took your attitude it would cause a lot more damage in the long run.

Gianthaystacks, if you live in married family at some point most children will decide they hate their parents for some reason. They often plan to run away and hold massive grudges and sometimes don't get on for years.

When they live in the same house they have no choice but to put up with said parent and it is a normal part of childhood. The way this little girl is feeling is normal, but it doesn't mean that she should be allowed to throw away her relationship with her father altogether.

It sounds like you are projecting your own feelings onto this child, have you been cheated on or had a cheating father.

You sound a bit unhinged.

At ten, the English courts take the child's wishes and feelings into consideration in contact matters. So for everyone saying the child isn't old enough to make the decision, the courts see it differently.

She does need counselling to work thro her feelings tho, I'd re-arrange contact to be shorter or take place closer to home whilst the DD is so distressed at the prospect.

I wouldn't ignore my ten year olds feelings in such a matter.

This is tough. I live in a different country to my partner, because his daughter lives there and he wishes to be as near to her as he can (although he would prefer to live in my country, which is also his country of origin) and I utterly respect his position, no matter that it makes my life a lot tougher.

If it had gone the other way, I have no doubt that his little girl would find it really difficult trying to adjust from one family to the other over holidays and so on, and there would be tears at least during the transition period. I also completely understand your fear that she's being taught to 'put up and shut up' when it comes to men - that would be difficult to watch.

You're being a good friend, and I think all you can do is hang in there and support your friend. But you may yet become a good ally when this girl gets old enough to really be able to judge her father's behaviour. Until then, though, there's really nothing you can do but keep it zipped.

@BridgetBidet - I feel sorry that you feel the need to personally attack me and call me unhinged for feeling human empathy for someone else. I feel this girl is being forced into a relationship with a relationship with a father she doesn't like because her mother needs to protect her finances by not displeasing him. It is the father who threw away the relationship, so why should the dd be expected to submissively trot over to France whenever he wants?

WOW - I think this has to be the first time ever Chippingin and I have disagreed.

I am the parent who ended the relationship and then took DS 2000 miles away from the country he was born in and where his father grew up. It was the right thing to do and I really wanted EXP to maintain a relationship with DS - unfortunately he couldn't be bothered.

I think the fact this father is trying shows he cares. Ig he'd remained in the UK, she'd had the same anger towards him and refused to see him - would you feel differently OP? You just seem very angry at him for moving away. I'm not saying you shouldn't but your anger makes me think there is something more to this?

fuzzywuzzy that's a very fair comment, each situation is different and every child deserves to be listened to. but the OP doesn't hear the (hopefully deep) conversations that go on regarding this when they are alone.

YABVU and sound unreasonably angry about it.

Good for her for sending her daughter to counselling. From your description the father does indeed sound like an arse, but the mother is thinking about what is best for her daughter in the long term. And she has decided that encouraging her relationship with her father is in her child's interests.

She's 10 years old, in another ten years time the father may still be an arse or he may prove himself to a man worthy of a relationship with his daughter. But until such a time that she's mature enough to decide properly for herself it is in her best interests to keep seeing him. Aside from anything else it will prevent any 'you kept me away from my father' type arguments in teenage years.

You should be more supportive of your friend.

YANBU

The daughter might benefit from counselling, but counselling shouldn't be a form of coercion.

It's really shit at the best of times when NRPs insist on their children spending school hols miles and miles away from their friends but realising your father is also a prick must be bloody awful. Poor girl.

No fuzzywuzzy - at 10 the courts would take their feelings into account but they would not be decisive. They'd have more input into contact pattern too than an issue about cutting contact. At 10 they would be considered far too young to be able to make a decision about cutting contact with a parent when there were no welfare issues. Quite right too.

You sound way too overinvolved op. Hopefully mum is sensible enough to stick to her own plan rather than take your suggestions.

No I don't think yabu he sounds like an arse and you're very clear that you're not interfering - you're not offering unsolicited advice or berating her for gaslighting her kids, you're merely venting on an internet site, which is perfectly acceptable IMO.

The current orthodoxy is that it is in a child's best interest to see their non resident parent whatever. The evidence for this orthodoxy is quite shaky, but since it benefits NRPs, 92% of whom are male, it's been swallowed whole-heartedly by the media and therefore by most people.

Although as Fuzzywuzzy points out, a 10 year old is considered old enough by courts to have his or her opinions taken into account when deciding about contact.

I'm not entirely sure where I sit on that tbh; I see your POV about it being wrong to gaslight a child, but I also wonder if the courts are right to give a 10 year old child so much responsibility about contact by taking their views into account.

So the Father 'threw away' the relationship.

Lots of couples split up for various different reasons

Often the kids are caught in the firing line and when they're not encouraged to see the NRP, they often grow up resenting the RP and voting with their feet.

I still think this woman's doing the right thing.

Also, it's OK to be angry about this.

It's OK to be angry about injustice to children. I don't understand people who tell other people their anger isn't valid. Anger at injustice is always valid IMO, even if it's not happening to you directly. I'm incredibly angry about the bedroom tax and the cuts to disability benefit, although neither of those issues actually affect me. I'm confused by the idea that we only have the right to be angry about stuff that affects us directly.

Those people saying the OP isn't supportive of her friend, she's made it clear that she hasn't offered opinions/ suggestions re this - she's venting here on MN, not over a glass of wine in her friend's kitchen. I think that's two different things. I'd be very dubious about the latter, but for the former - that's what MN's for, no?

You do sound unhinged. This family sound like they are trying to muddle through the best they can after an event which was incredibly traumatic for all of them.

Incidentally part of the reason I think you sound unhinged is because you have given so much specific information about this family. The parents financial circumstances, the new girlfriends profession, the city the father is in, the date of the split, the age of the new girlfriend, the age of the child. Anybody who even vaguely knows them must be able to guess who they are because you have given so much specific information about a very unusual set of circumstances.

So I think you are being VVVV unreasonable broadcasting this families business in such an identifiable way, particularly about the little girls counseling.

Yes she's made it clear she hasn't said all this to her friend but that's hardly the same thing as being supportive though.

I don't think this thread being on mumsnet is helpful for this family. I have to say I have never known a wealthy family with two daughters, one of whom is ten where the husband left three years ago to go to Paris with a catwalk model. In fact I think that probably nobody apart from this family's friends and family will know people with such a set of circumstances.

OP - this is not your dirty laundry to wash in public. I think you should ask for it to be removed. Mainly because the little girl will be identifiable to people she knows and I don't think details of her counseling being posted somewhere like this will help her with anything.

I think you should ask for this thread to be removed because you have no right to broadcast this families business in such an identifiable way.