To be angry on behalf of my friend's daughter?

[GiantHaystacks]

I have just come back from my friend's house and feel really pissed off on behalf of her dd1. My friend got married to a guy she met at university, they had two dds and both became successful in their respective careers. He became so successful that he decided to reward himself with a 20 year old new wife who was a catwalk model. He then proved how much he loved his dds by moving to Paris, thereby ensuring he had fuck-all to do with their daily existence. He does, however, make himself feel better by inundating the dds with a slew of expensive toys and clothes as that obviously compensates for him being a self-absorbed prick.

The reason I feel angry is that my friend's dd2 is too young to fully understand what is going on but her dd1 (10) refuses to acknowledge the gifts her father sends her and has to be dragged kicking and screaming to visit him for the school holidays (where he again gets to prove how fundamentally decent he is by spending throwing money at her). My friend is making her dd1 attend counselling sessions about this and is busy devising strategies to 'ensure dd1 maintains a good relationship with her father', even though this comes at some personal cost to her own relationship with her daughter and even though she has been left with all the hard work involved in bringing up children. I think she should be pleased that her dd1 can see her father for what he is and has the self-respect not to be bought off with gifts and holidays. Why should dd1 be forced to spend time with someone who has lost her respect? Why does dd1 have to be counselled out of following her own instincts in order to placate her father's need to feel like he's still a good guy?

I feel so angry that this girl has a strong sense of self-respect but it is being ignored. It's horrible that a 10 year old is already being gaslighted and by her own parents too.

The difference mary is that posters where supporting you as a mother, this is about a poster who is going against what the mother sees as what is best for the child.

Really. A good friend splashes your private business all over the web in a really identifiable way and then leaves it up long enough for half the mothers at this poor little girls school to see? Some friend.

What drives me mad is the assumption that the mother is some passive victim in this. It's completely possible that she was unhappy within the marriage and understands that the split was a about a variety of things, not just an affair. It's possible that she still likes and respects her ex and thinks that a relationship with him is valuable for his child.

But, no, she shouldn't be pragmatic and philosophical about her divorce, she should be a screaming harridan taking revenge and sticking it to him for the sisterhood.

Who is suggesting that the mother 'should be a screaming harridan taking revenge and sticking it to him for the sisterhood'? There's a work of difference between that and suggesting that the child's wishes should count.

Btw, how do you all know that the details are real? Perhaps some of the specific but irrelevant details have been given to conceal identities?

I wonder how many women there are in the country who's husband has left them to marry a 20 year old catwalk model? Not many. And if that detail isn't true then the OPs entire story falls down because it would mean that she had constructed the story in such a way to cast the ex in the worst light possible.

I wonder if certain people would be so outraged if he'd left her for a slightly overweight secretary with stretchmarks?

And yes this is what the OP wants her to do. She wants her to tell her husband that her child will no longer see her father as she herself feels that he deserves some sort of 'revenge' visited on him. She wants the mother to encourage the child's feelings and validate them because she thinks this is what the father deserves.

What the OP wants is destructive. What the mother is doing is constructive.

I sympathise with OP. Injustice and unfair treatment of a child should bother everyone, not just that child's immediate family. At ten, the girl should be listened to and her wishes taken into account. It's not just about what the father wants.

Being forced to go and stay with him will do far more damage in the long run than taking a break but making it clear she always has the option to change her mind. They can stay in touch via letters, phonecalls, videocalls. Forcing physical contact will just make her resentful.

And what's with the assertion that mothers always know and do exactly what's best for their children? Life's more complex than that.

A scan through Relationships should be enough to demonstrate that plenty of parents do the wrong things for the wrong reasons (and twenty years later the children are on MN questioning their parents' judgement and motivations).

Ruby this isn't the mother's side of the story.

RubyThePirate Sun 28-Jul-13 13:59:53
"Who is suggesting that the mother 'should be a screaming harridan taking revenge and sticking it to him for the sisterhood'? There's a work of difference between that and suggesting that the child's wishes should count."

Yes, but the OP is not making a calm measured argument to the effect that the child's wishes should count. She clearly carries a lot of anger against the father and has already decided what the appropriate feelings of the girl should be ("self respect").

It would be interesting to know exactly what her own involvement is. The one thing she does not come across as is a neutral bystander.

If I were the mother, trying to find my way through a difficult time, I would not want anybody by my side who had such a strong emotional stake in my family life.

Could it be to do with CSA?

My friends dd has to spend a certain number of days a year with her dad or he doesnt have to pay them the money, and my friend needs it.

The DD doesnt really like going but does becuase its not a horrible situation just one she wouldnt mind missing.

It feels somewhat wrong to pull apart this mothers parenting when she has not presented the facts a 'friend' has.

The CSA don't have jurisdiction outside the UK. The mother can go to court for maintenance, whether he see's his child or not (called a REMO, it only applies to certain countries but they include France).

There usually is a lot more to people's stories, the father does need to build bridges though.

Bridget, I don't really see this issue as hinging on the occupation/pulchritude of the OW; the core issue is that of the child's feelings and how much they should be taken into account.

And cory, if OP is projecting, then I'd tend to agree. But what if she's spot on? Is it right to be neutral? In twenty years might that child not ask OP why she stood by and said nothing?

I don't know what the answer is in this particular case, but the criticism of OP for caring enough to feel strongly strikes me as quite strange.

Is it what the daughter really wants though? I would hazard a guess that the mother knows her daughter better than this 'friend'.

This is the other thing that makes me angry about the OP, she says this woman is her friend but then accuses her of selling her children out for cash. I can think of a lot of reasons why a mother might react like this, none of which have anything to do with cash.

If this is genuine I hope this mother hears about this so she can ensure that she cuts this 'friend' who accuses her of essentially selling her children out of her life.

"And cory, if OP is projecting, then I'd tend to agree. But what if she's spot on? Is it right to be neutral? In twenty years might that child not ask OP why she stood by and said nothing?"

If she is spot on, then for an adult to use such very dramatic language is still not going to help the child. If she could stay calm and argue her case calmly, then that might help. Bad-mouthing the father, however well deserved, isn't.

I don't think YABU if your friend's dd's upset is based on feeling that her ddad is trying to buy her affection, and that her feelings aren't as important as her duty to placate her ddad, etc.

However, it is just as likely that she is feeling conflicted about having a nice time with her ddad when he left her dmum for someone else. Hopefully her counsellor will help her to tease out her feelings.

In the meantime, I think you have to take a little step back unless, of course your friend's dd has asked you to become involved and confided in you. I'd worry that you have such strong feelings about her ddad that you're not best placed to assess how the dd really feels.

Ruby my son feels like he wants to eat cat biscuits. He feels like he wants to tip the wheely bin over and climb into it if he gets a second when I'm not looking. He feels like creeping up on his fathers glass of beer and drinking it when I'm not looking.

Sometimes as parents you understand that what your child feels like doing is not best for them and you don't allow them to do it. The mother is doing her best to have a civilized divorce were her children get to keep a good relationship with both parents.

An it's fuck all to do with the OP. It's certainly not her business to post it on here and accuse the mother of just doing it for cash.

OP isn't coming back by the looks of things.

The observation that money is a factor is not the same as saying the mother is selling her DD out for cash.

It may be less black and white than that; the mother may be having to weigh some interests of her child (autonomy) against others (material comfort). That's not wrong, it's just how life is - both things matter - but as a friend, OP is not wrong to be concerned about the emotional impact on the DD.

Funky -CSA is payable by law, regardless of whether or not a child sees the non resident parent

Do you think that about your friends Ruby? If they make a decision that you don't agree with do you automatically jump to the worst possible scenario for their reasoning? You don't support your friends decisions?

And for what it's worth I don't think for a moment that the OP is particularly bothered about this little girls welfare. If she was she wouldn't have posted this on here. I think she is motivated out of malice towards the ex and out of jealousy of her friends financial security.

If your son is developmentally typical and still wanting to eat cat biscuits at ten years old, despite an explanation of why that's a bad idea, I support your parenting decisions but wonder what's going on.

Bridget, that's quite extreme.

I'd neither jump to the worst conclusion, nor blindly support a decision. I'd just reflect on the situation and gently ask any questions that seemed reasonable. I hope a good friend would do the same for me.

Ruby, yes I would agree with you that would be the right reaction. If i felt the way the OP did I would gently try and talk to my friend about taking her daughter's feelings into account. Probably, as you say, by trying to ask gentle questions. If she still felt the same way after discussing it I would support her decision.

What I wouldn't do would be to run home in high dudgeon and post on mumsnet about what dreadful parents they are and sit being judgmental on the entire family because they had made a decision I wouldn't have agreed with myself. I certainly would never feel it my place to dictate how a divorced couple should conduct their relationship or how much contact a child should have with a parent against the wishes of their own family.

Unless there was violence or abuse. But there isn't.

The way you've interpreted and responded to the OP and others makes me doubt that you're quite as measured in your responses to things as your second paragraph suggests, BB. But perhaps your forum style is different to your rl style; OP may be the same.

I don't think OP is coming back either, btw.

I read her other thread and I wonder if this is research...

Nevertheless, it had been an interesting discussion.