to think this is a joke re nurseries.

[bloodynurseries]

Am SAHM to 2 year old DS and 3.5 year old DD.

Soon after DD turned 3 we decided to send her to nursery 2 mornings a week, to get her ready for school and help her socialise with other children.

We applied for the 2 state nurseries near us, both of whom wrote back within a couple of months to say they did not have a place to offer us with no indication that we would be kept on a waiting list. There are no other council nurseries particularly near us and travel is an issue so decided to apply for a private nursery, the thinking being that we would pay the fees and they would be paid back at the end of term.

So we got a place, 2 mornings a week, at a really lovely local private nursery.

It was too good to be true sadly. DD went today for settling in day and manager mentioned that a 'session' counts as 3 hours and as their sessions are 5 hours long we would have to pay for 2 hours ourselves so 4 hours a week. It's an expensive nursery and this is going to amount to nearly £200 per month. We cannot in any way justify paying this and it had not occurred to me that there would be any cost involved.

I hope I don't get flamed for being entitled, I'm not, but our local council website clearly states that every 3 year old is entitled to 5 free sessions a week at nursery. Our dd is now 3.5 and unless we take her to a nursery out of town (looking like the only option) or pay money we don't have she isn't going to get a nursery place before she goes to school. Feel so upset about this and would appreciate any advice.

Why would funding cover 3x 5hours?

I didn't realise nurseries had to offer the free hours only, which having read the government guidance appears to be the case. Where I am the local authority allows a maximum of 6 hours a day, so we had to make up the other 4 hours, and 'lost' 3 hours. It makes a massive difference to our fees though so I can't complain. I'm not sure what the nursery would say if you only wanted to go in for the 6 hours. I'd have thought they'd be very against it as they would still be paying the staff for the full day. Similarly, they only allow half day places if they have spare capacity, but if someone wanted a full day they would take priority. I don't think the hourly rate is different, and they certainly don't bump the non-funded rate to cover for the funded hours.

Children don't need to go to nursery to prepare for school. If that was the case where do they go to prepare for nursery?
Go to the park, playgroup, take them to get some shopping. If you want to prepare them academically then you can do that at home.
Don't worry so much and definitely don't start down a road that will only get harder - funding something that leaves you struggling or picking a nursery that is a long distance away as if you pick a local school then their nursery friends might not go there which you may feel is a problem (it often isn't.)

There are a few private nurseries near me that accept the 15 hr state funding for 3 yr olds. I put my dc name down for my local school attached nursery when they were babies as I knew that the waiting list was huge. You have time to put your younger childs' name down for the local nursery as he is 2 so there should be a place available for when he turns 3. Do ask them to be clear about waiting lists & formal application forms etc. For your older child, I would seek advice from the council.

80sMum - nurseries do have a choice. They can choose not to offer the funded sessions. However, if they do offer the funded sessions, then they are not allow to charge top ups.

Our (private) nursery offer after school care and holiday places for ex-nursery kids to avoid making a loss on funded places. It works well financially and is popular with parents. Obviously parents are free to pay for extra hours if they want their DC to come for full sessions/in holidays.

This is new to me from the point that council run nurseries exist... We had one in the area but they did discounts if you worked for the council so they are always full. Private is the only way to go. Dtds will get 2 days (15 hours) a week next year buy I did have to book early. Luckily dd1 was leaving nursery for school and so I mentioned it and they took the last spaces 2 years ahead of them going! Madness. childrens centre would be the first people to call

Try a childminder or different nursery. Lots of council places round here won't take children until the September before they start school, they just don't have the room.
Our private nursery took funded hours though, and did just those 3 hours if you wanted then. They were very good,so don't give up hope.

Have you got any preschools near you? Ours is linked with the local school,you could ask them

I checked with our council today and an independent child are advisor. A private nursery can choose to offer sessions how they like. So they can say that to get the full 15 hours you have to have 5 sessions and those sessions are 5 hours each. Therefore the parent has to pay the 2 hour wraparound care. It's perfectly legal.

The nursery I work at offer 5 x 3hour sessions a week completely free. We have a morning session and an afternoon session.

Children who already attend the nursery before they are 3 get 15hours off their fees

I'm not convinced that is right ThisWay. If you have a look at the statutory guidance here for local authorities media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/e/la%20role%20statutory%20guidance%20final.pdf it states on page 8 that local authorities should:
A1.9 Ensure that if providers charge for any goods or services, for example meals, optional extras or additional hours of provision outside of the place, this is not a condition of children accessing their place.

So if your nursery is making it a condition of your free place that you have to pay for 2 additional hours that it wrong.

Thiswayforcrazy - we have been told by our local authority that we are categorically not allowed to insist on parents taking a certain numb of sessions in order to be eligible for the funded sessions. If we are offering funded sessions 9-12 and 12-3 and a parent only wants 3 sessions a week, we are not allowed to insist they take their entire 5 session allocation with us. Parents are free to split their allocation between 2 settings if they wish. I wonder if each local authority makes their own rules?

Thiswayforcrazy - I've just read your post again and it is definitely wrong. You're right in that settings can say which hours they offer as funded ones - eg. 8-11am 5 mornings a week or 3-6pm, 5 afternoons a week, but they are not allowed to insist that parents attend for any longer than these sessions. Parents must be able to access the 15 hours completely free of charge for settings to be offering the funded sessions according to the guidelines.

It also states at the bottom of the key points with regard to private business, and this, according to both my council and an independent childcare advisor, is where the boundary lies. They can say that their session must be in 5 hour blocks and that the 15 hours must be split over 5 sessions. This according to the people I spoke to this morning, is perfectly legal. Otherwise it would put private nurseries out if business and affect childcare providers in the area.

I'm sorry Thisiscrazy, but they really are wrong. Parents must be able to access the 15 hours without any top ups being charged. The 15 hours of funded place is a universal offering, and allowing settings to charge top ups or insist on additional hours disadvantages anyone who cannot afford to pay. The funded hours are there to ensure nursery education for all children from the term after they are 3, not just those who can afford to pay.

This constant flouting of the rules really annoys me.

I am going by what two people have told me today. One who authorises the funding and one who works independently.

Do you mean this bit?
This document does not provide guidance on how providers operate their private businesses, including charges for provision over and above a child?s early education place. Local authorities should not intervene in providers? private businesses outside of a child?s early education place.

I don't think that negates the bit saying they have to offer the free sessions without conditions - it just means the LA can't interfere with the nursery's decision outside those hours. The bit about "no conditions" seems clear that private nurseries cannot insist that you have to buy extra hours to get your free place.

I find it really frustrating. Because, if they are advising me wrongly, then how do I challenge it? If the person who authorises the finding at the LA, says they can do this, then what can I do?? My sons are already at this nursery and I am paying full cost until funding in September. I don't want to move them really.

Maybe call back with the statutory guidance to hand and ask how what they are telling you fits with the idea of a free place?

a nursery can just offer free slots from say 9-12 then charge per hour after that and for lunch so if you want all free allowance you have to go those hours 5 days a week, that they are under no obligation whatsoever to give you free hours a different time to make up for the fact that your children needs 3 days 9-5 that just means you get 9 free hours as you miss the sessions on the other 2 days, they can be flexible but they are perfectly legally entitled to give the 3 day person ( requiring 9-5) 9 free hours and then charge for the other 15 hours plus meals

I will try that. I have saved the document. Thank you.

Sarah, I don't need specific hours, I'm a SAHM, so if they said he could go 3 hours a day, 5 days a week I would do that.

From the document "Ensure that if providers charge for any goods or services, for example meals, optional extras or additional hours of provision outside of the place, this is not a condition of children accessing their place." the "their place" bit could be their place on the funded places scheme not at that particular nursery?

Also, the whole document is headed as guidance and it also says "Local authorities must have regard to this guidance when seeking to discharge their duties under sections 6, 7, 11 and 13 of the Childcare Act 2006. They should not depart from it unless they have good reason to do so." without actually defining a good reason - it may be that the fact private nurseries will withdraw completely if forced to make a loss counts as a good reason.

Boots, this is what the lady at the council said, private nurseries would withdraw or go bust and it would affect the area.