to think this is a joke re nurseries.

[bloodynurseries]

Am SAHM to 2 year old DS and 3.5 year old DD.

Soon after DD turned 3 we decided to send her to nursery 2 mornings a week, to get her ready for school and help her socialise with other children.

We applied for the 2 state nurseries near us, both of whom wrote back within a couple of months to say they did not have a place to offer us with no indication that we would be kept on a waiting list. There are no other council nurseries particularly near us and travel is an issue so decided to apply for a private nursery, the thinking being that we would pay the fees and they would be paid back at the end of term.

So we got a place, 2 mornings a week, at a really lovely local private nursery.

It was too good to be true sadly. DD went today for settling in day and manager mentioned that a 'session' counts as 3 hours and as their sessions are 5 hours long we would have to pay for 2 hours ourselves so 4 hours a week. It's an expensive nursery and this is going to amount to nearly £200 per month. We cannot in any way justify paying this and it had not occurred to me that there would be any cost involved.

I hope I don't get flamed for being entitled, I'm not, but our local council website clearly states that every 3 year old is entitled to 5 free sessions a week at nursery. Our dd is now 3.5 and unless we take her to a nursery out of town (looking like the only option) or pay money we don't have she isn't going to get a nursery place before she goes to school. Feel so upset about this and would appreciate any advice.

They will get about £3.50 an hour from the government for your 'free' hours. Which I am guessing is nowhere near what they charge per hour. So if they didn't do this they would lose money hand over fist.

It is only the rubbish places, or those prepared to make a loss, that can afford to offer just the funded hours- cheap staff, cheap resources and cheap equipment.

I spoke to the council in my area about this a few months ago and they were very helpful.
Private nurseries are legally not allowed to charge anything for the 15 hours funded preschool places, 38 weeks per year. It must be free at point of use, no strings attached. Including snacks/meals etc (u should have an option to take a snack yourself if you want to). However they have no obligation to give it you flexibly. So they can set their hours as say 9-12 and 1-4. If your session is 7-12 you do have to pay for 2 hours, or start to drop off at 9 instead. Some nurseries are flexible but they don't have to be.
The nursery manager explained to me that they charged £23 for a 5 hour morning session, but only got just over £3 per hour from the government so the figures just don't add up for them to offer 5 hour places and run a business. After I spoke to them and explained we couldn't afford to top up to 5 hours (and didn't need childcare - he was there to socialise) they grudgingly backed down and gave us 3 hour slots .

I have a question about school nurseries - in this area, the sessions onlyseem to be 2.5 hours which is 12.5 per week for 38 weeks. Feel like even the state nurseries are conning us. Does this happen else where?

Ok. Picture the scene. You run a business selling a product. You set a price for your product which is reached after careful consideration of the demand, your overheads and the profit margins needed to keep the business in business. Margins are low, but you sell enough to keep afloat.

Then the government says that everyone should get a certain amount of this product free. The problem is, they don't supply the product, you do - along with your competitors.

So, because others have registered, you have to register (or go out of business) to supply the free products on the government's behalf. You spend hours administrating the scheme for them, which you are not paid for. You use your own stationery, your own printer and your own time, which are not paid for.

So, the end users get their free product and you send in the claim forms to get paid for the products you've given away.

For your trouble, you are paid just over half of the price of your product.

If you can't charge for extras you will go out of business.

That's how it is. The payment that nurseries receive is nowhere near enough to cover the cost of the hours, so the nurseries have no choice but to find ways to charge parents, or they would go out of business.

Different LAs have their own 'local code of practice' depending on the demographic in their area. Nurseries can choose how they offer the free hours and how much they charge for the extras. So, they could quite legitimately open for 8 hours a day and only offer the free hours for a 3 hour slot in the middle of the day.

i dont think they should be flexible for people who are bringing their kids to socialise. Working parents have to work with it, seems daft to make special allowances for people that dont

conning you jads? its funded nursery place

I thought it was 15hrs a week - so why not do 3 sessions of 5hrs

Their policy of a session being 3.5hrs doesn't seem right

It's the amount of hours there not sessions iyswim

JADS - it should be 570 hours a year over at least 38 weeks.

mine was also 12.5 hours a week term time only but it's a good nursery and I was glad he got the place in it as it's the feeder for the primary he is going to that ds2 also attends. I had his name down from birth as I knew demand for it was so high. i'm not going to quibble over 2.5 hours a week when i'm not paying for them.

Ok, maybe conning wasn't the right way to put it, but from my calculations, we aren't getting the full entitlement of 570 hours per year. We are getting 475 hours provided by the council in state run school nurseries. My point being that if school nurseries aren't even providing the full entitlement then why on earth should a private business?

Sorry for the poor phrasing, I hope this makes sense. For us to use a school nursery, we would need a cm for wraparound care anyway so it would still cost the same ( most cm charge as they can't fill that space for 2.5/3 hours). The cost isn't an issue, it's the council not providing the full entitlement that annoys me. We are in Wales if that makes a difference.

ds1 I mean

I am in NI- maybe we have different rules here?

Yes, this is very common, and it is because the government funding is insufficient to cover the cost of many private nurseries.
My dd did two mornings and two afternoons at a lovely Montessori nursery, and the way it worked out, the government funding paid for only a small proportion of the total cost.

I work at a maintained nursery, and it is just the way they run - basically admissions work on much the same basis as school ones.

I do think it should be made much more obvious to people that this is the case though and that anyone wanting a straight 3.5 hours a day in a maintained nursery really needs to apply at least 18 months before their child turns three.

Some LAs implemented the 3 hours rather than 2.5 earlier than others. Ours is only just starting it this year (just as my DD leaves school nursery).

Speak to your local councillor to check what you're entitled to. Here, it's standard policy that parents make up the shortfall between local authority contribution & nursery fees. I've never heard anyone of anyone trying to challenge that. Surprised the nursery waited until DD's first day to tell you that. Nasty surprise for you

It is only the rubbish places, or those prepared to make a loss, that can afford to offer just the funded hours- cheap staff, cheap resources and cheap equipment

This is not true. Private/independent schools around here offer the 15 hours free in their nurseries. They have top notch resources, excellent staff etc. They (like other nurseries that claim early years funding from government) are required to do this - I was told it was a requirement of them having the funding. Parents who want more hours pay a high rate for the extra hours but you are not obliged to. My nephew goes for 3 sessions of 5 hours (including lunch) without charge.

I was under the impression that any nursery claiming funding had to offer genuine 15 free hours. If they only have a set number of 15 hr places available that's allowed but they can't say a session is a minimum of X forcing all parents to pay a "top up".

The local authorities may help push the private nurseries to accept funded hours only but I think there will be resistance. The nurseries could just leave the scheme leaving the working parents who have the funding as a discount having to pay more and an even greater shortage of funded places.

No indication of a waiting list? Um - why didn't you just ASK?

I didn't realise they couldn't charge top up fees, our nursery charges top up fee's for the funded places as there sessions are 5 hours long but will only allow 3 hours per day from the free hours, I think. I must go check now, DS isn't old enough for free hours yet.

Wow I never realised how difficult the 15 hours free is.

Just realised I'm incredibly lucky. Our private nursery has no set sessions. DD1 had funding of 1 day, year round. DD2 I picked the hours to fit in with school pick ups, term time only and when DS gets to that stage we will do the same and pay for an odd hour. I thought this was the norm. We pay no extras unless we go over the averaged out 15 hours a week.

We have had issues with the nursery and felt a bit hard done by until now.

Hope you find a solution OP, I couldn't do it if DCs nursery wasn't so flexible.

Plus its and outstanding ofsted rated nursery, so it isn't just the substandard ones that off true 15 hours free funding.

We offer a 3-hour term-time core place every morning and every afternoon.

If a parent requires more than that, they can add on breakfast, lunch and afterschool club (and holiday club out of term time if needed) at an additional cost.

OP, it sounds like an epic lack of communication on your nursery's part, but I'm pretty bemused as to why you didn't query it yourself - surely you knew how long your DD would be there for and could have queried it?

magnum ice-lolly said: It is only the rubbish places, or those prepared to make a loss, that can afford to offer just the funded hours- cheap staff, cheap resources and cheap equipment.

That's not true - my DS goes to an awesome playgroup, 30 minutes commute from London and they would happily have given him the 15 hours only - I pay for him to stay longer purely for my own convenience.

Perhaps they are making a loss (although I don't see how they would have survived so long if they were), but they are certainly not rubbish, the staff are all brilliant (and caring, and happy, and often go on training courses, so I presume not underpaid), they have plenty of equipment and toys.

'I used to have three five hour sessions to add up to the 15.'

funding wouldnot have covered 3 X 5 hours .your nursery must have been lying to the authority
£200 a month for 68 hours is about £3 an hour!! do you think that is an extortionate amount to pay for an hours childcare?