To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

This thread has brought back a lot of memories for me of my son's birth almost four years ago. I feel really strongly that I want to write down some thoughts after reading others' experiences (by the way, thank you for sharing).

I was very clueless about labour and birth, despite preparing as best I could. I had no birth plan. I ended up with an emergency C-section and was left traumatised - I wept every night for six months afterwards.

My story feels pitiful in comparison to the others shared here. after a night of agonising cramps a midwife examined me internally and told me i wasn't dilated at all. a doctor examined me internally a few moments later and told me i was 4cm but after a sleepless night i had been crushed by the midwife's exasperated tone - seems silly now, writing it down, but it was my first time and i was easily crushed. after moving to the delivery room a doctor started to attach a clip to my son's head without introducing himself, or explaining what he was doing. I was flat on my back when he started to insert the required machinery into my vagina, and I wriggled away and shouted at him to stop. The midwife (who "attended" during my labour with her back to me the entire time typing notes on her computer) grabbed me forcibly and tried to pin me to the bed, shouting that I should let the doctor do his job. thankfully he stopped and explained what he was doing before continuing. also, when I refused to be catheterized early on in the proceedings I came under immense pressure from a room full of HCPs and I ended up shouting and crying - it was the only way to make them listen. they ganged up on me and told me i was putting my baby's life at risk because i wanted to go to the toilet by myself. no explanation as to why or how, but just bullying because it suited them better.

I ended up screaming and yelling at one midwife near the end. I feel bad about that because she genuinely didn't deserve it, but the treatment I received during my labour had me in such a state that I felt like a wild animal. i can't begin to explain the powerlessness I felt, or how uncaring HCPs were with my body. i felt like the useless meat surrounding my baby. the whole process affected me deeply, i can't watch any kind of violence on TV or in films now. i don't have flashbacks anymore thankfully, and my second child's birth helped me to make peace with what had happened.

for my second pregnancy i had a planned section. no internals. no risk of maltreatment. i would never again put myself in my most vulnerable state at the mercy of such cruel, contemptuous, savage people. i dread to think what they would have done to me if i had delivered any other way.

I disagree with your splitting of the issues, Horry, though not with your overall point, which is after all the point of this tread.

Women are being coolly, deliberately, assaulted by HCPs especially during birth.

'Dehumanisation' is too emotive a word for a campaign, but it adequately describes what posters have suffered in their experiences told here. It's also behind the victim-blaming that attends rape & sexual assault. Another striking parallel is the silencing of victims. This allows perpetrators to carry on abusing, and lying, with confidence that victims would not be believed if they spoke up.

Mumsnet powerfully addressed the silence of rape victims with "We Believe You". How about something like "End The Silence" for victims of gynaecological assault? (Eeuw, the parallels here are terrifying.)

Several posters have already said they hadn't told anybody how they were harmed. Would women feel empowered to make a fuss - supporting both future mothers and good practitioners - by hearing others' pain & anger about these assaults?

Savage is a good word, aloha. What they did to you was horrible. Thank you for sharing. I'm very sorry it still affects you in some ways. These are deep traumas, aren't they? :(

Reading this thread, I have two questions which I hope are not offensive. They're not meant to be.

1 how far do we think this is an obstetrics problem?
The other day my colleague told me a horrible story. Her sister had a problem with her knee and went in for exploratory surgery to see whether she was a suitable candidate for a bigger op to cure the problem. She came out of the anaesthetic to find that big op had been done - they'd seen it was feasible, so just done it whilst she was under. No consent, no discussion of alternative treatment. She now cannot walk for 8 weeks and has had to take leave from work and move back to her parents' to be cared for. Is this not a version of what's happening on this thread?

2 how far is this cultural issue within the NHS?
I have been in my local hospital - which is struggling and a bit of a byword locally - for several overnight stays recently. The nurses are always lovely but I notice this sort of "keep calm and carry on" attitude, a kind of blitz spirit - like, yes we are under resourced, but lets just crack on! I wonder if the darker side of this attitude is a kind of grim pragmatism, like "well, it's not ideal to use forceps, but we need to get that labour ward bed free, I'm sure the mum will soldier on".

In every NHS hospital I've been in there is this sense of not grumbling, carrying on no matter what.... Which is really admirable.... But I wonder if it has an unfortunate side too.

Whaaaat?! Utterly shocked at your friend's knee story, RP!! How can they get away with that? Dis they trick her into consenting to the bigger op? Surely she has grounds for a complaint ...

I wonder about your NHS questions, too.

... Thought twice about adding this, for fear of politicising the thread, but as the NHS is being broken down and replaced by private services, the pressures for healthcare to be just-good-enough, at minimum cost, will only intensify. I've had nothing but wonderful treatment in private hospitals courtesy of BUPA, but that's not the same thing at all.

I think I'm trying to say I can believe this could be a mainly NHS-related problem, but let's not demonise the brand (as it now is), because the issue's not in the name but in the ethics of public health provision.

Garlic again really not trying to be offensive, but....!!

It does seem to me cultural to some extent. I am British but didn't grow up here so NHS environments feel often quite alien. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for it, but often find the assumptions made quite odd.

My colleague did not tell that to me as a horrible story. She told it as a story of "fantastic service" as her sis would not have to go on a waiting list now. When I told DH he shrugged and said "yeah but it fixed the problem, right." DH also British btw.

I just see a continuity there between that attitude and a midwife saying "just let the dr do his job" or saying forcing a woman into position was unavoidable. End result, healthy baby? So what are you complaining about?

I do not want to have a baby in hospital after reading this.

But I should say I don't want to derail the thread and also I fully support better funding of the NHS and not damaging it further through privatisation.

Revolting that's sort of my point really: that many of the experiences fall under both "unconsented and/or brutal treatment" and "unpleasant gynae experience" at the same time. Lifting the lid on the extent to which some HCPs consider that their clinical experience outweighs the needs, feelings or wishes of the patient is long overdue.

I wonder if Panorama or similar would be interested?

Horry that is a very interesting idea....

I agree that there seems to be a strong assumption, on the part of too many HCPs, that their opinion concerning the patient's body & feelings is the only one that counts. I'm also certain that many patients feel overawed (or cowed) by them. I once walked out of a consultation with a patronising bully - as I marched down the corridor, he bawled at me from his doorway. Pretty sure he's had his malicious way with plenty of sick, shy or frightened women

Bullying doctors and timid patients are NOT particularly related to public health provision, though, nor to Britain. You find them in any medical setting. I think the difference is that a private hospital wouldn't perform unauthorised surgery, because they wouldn't get paid for it. The fact that a patient's not paying per procedure doesn't entitle practitioners to make decisions without their authorisation - but the disincentive of lost fees/jobs isn't there.

Sorry, there have been some cross-posts I've not read yet. I don't want to get into why this happens or how to stop it, anyway ... sufficient to let the light in. for now, I feel.

Revolting, I think the reason it's more of an obstetric issue is that we're talking about women's genitals. The most private and intimate area, maybe only her husband has seen them as an adult and she's got a ton of people staring and a wielding metal instruments at it. Even if more than her husband has seen, it's still a very vulnerable moment. I think to keep the outside world comparisons up it's the difference between being mugged and a sexual assault. Also being in labour is a very vulnerable time, the neocortex switches off and you go into primal mode, it can be a very confusing and scary time.

I don't think this is an NHS problem. I hear far worse stories from US mothers. I also don't think it's a financial issue either, we're talking basic manners, that's free. We teach our boys growing up that they don't rape women, why should that change if they put on a white coat?

I think your friend's sister is the same. You will see some people who say they had a sweep they weren't expecting but sucked it up and can't see why people are complaining then there's the others who are complaining. If she is happy that it was done and doesn't mind, then there's no problem. They usually do have consent in case they find something different though I thought?

I think the Blitz attitude is probably an issue but more from mums coming out thinking "That was horrendous, but mustn't grumble!"

Thanks for putting things clearly, DOT :)

Yes, thanks for some really interesting responses to my points. I wasn't sure if I should post them as I'm aware they might be contentious so thanks for not taking them the wrong way.

Miaow that's why I wonder if it would be more successful as part of a "unconsented treatment is assault" angle, talking to all ages, sexes, colours, classes etc, with gynae experiences as a "now imagine if all this disempowering and terrifying stuff was going on in your stuff " peak. Then it isn't just "silly hormonal women who should be grateful".

Revolting, unlike the OP you asked an honest question without accusation and I didn't see anything wrong with your question.

I'm not going to be very good at putting this into words...but:

I feel like the vast majority of my pregnancy and labour related interactions with HCPs had the net effect of knocking my self confidence to pieces.

I went into pregnancy as an independent reasonably self-confident intelligent woman. Now I am some sort of hollow shell of myself.

Some of this I lay at the door of the actual physical and emotional impact of the pregnancy and birth itself.

But the rest I blame on the NHS.

The whole attitude of midwives and HPCs to new mums to be is one of patronising condescension. A "yes you might think that but we know better". You are undermined at every turn. Told you are wrong and your instincts don't matter. Told what to eat, what to drink. Blamed for everything under the sun, (hyperemisis - well you are a bit over weight - yeah well actually that helps you idiots). You are treated like an idiot if you even question the standard tests, screens or processes during labour. If you ask what something is for, the answer is often along the lines of don't worry your pretty little head about it.

Then there is that whole, 'well of course you are feeling shit, have terrible pain, cannot walk, cannot sleep, cannot catch your breath after walking up 3 steps - your pregnant!' bullshit.

As if it somehow doesn't matter that your life is being ruined, or that this somehow mitigates the symptoms.

It is NOT okay to be throwing up dozens of times a day and not have the energy to get out of bed. It is NOT okay to not be able to walk more than a few steps for fear of SPD keeping you bed bound for the following week. It is NOT okay to be in crippling agony for so long that you can no longer speak or communicate in anyway except screaming.

No of these things magically become okay just because you are pregnant/in labour. They might not be exceptional...but that does NOT make them okay.

It is like a 9 month training program in 'shut up and do what we say' coupled with 'noone cares about how you feel or what pain you are in'.

People probably have no idea how many women have experienced shit care during pregnancy/labour and have never reported it...people are certainly mystified why noone actually complains about the Bounty women...the answer is that we have had every sense of self-possession and every sense of entitlement to respectful treatment thoroughly beaten out of us.

By the time the NHS are done with us WE are glad just to have gotten out alive with our babies...let alone anyone else thinking we should just be grateful.

They really do a total number on us from the word go.

Sorry this got epic...I wrote the below and hence don't want to delete it but don't read it unless you are very VERY bored.
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Some examples from my experience:

1. Midwife basically tutting at me for being in hospital for hyperemesis and telling me that everyone gets sick and you just have to get on with it...

I asked if I was fit to discharge then and could she take out the drip, of course she said that wasn't up to her - too fucking right.

1. I felt dizzy and faint after a shower at about 38 weeks and used a heart monitor to discover that the babies heart rate had hit 195. I phoned the maternity ward and they told me to come in so I did. They monitored me for a few hours while it returned to normal. The doctor that saw me basically said, 'yes well this is why we don't recommend people use these heart monitors at home'. I asked what she meant by that (which flustered her somewhat) and she said 'oh well some people get their own heart beat muddled up', I pointed out that I would have been even faster into the hospital if I had thought for one second that MY heart rate was 195 and kinda laughed in her face. I also pointed out that my PhD in experimental physics probably meant I was pretty competent to use a handheld ultra sound machine and I asked what I should do if I measured such a rate again. She said I should definitely come straight back in. But that I should just not measure it so I wouldn't have to come in....

1. I had horrible horrible back pains at about 39 weeks to the point I was getting panicked and sick, and went in to hospital and basically got morphined up. This was great for me, but the baby went unresponsive for about 6 hours. They were on the verge of prepping for a C-section when she finally perked up and gave a bit of a kick. Because of this I wrote 'no opiates' on my birth plan. I got no end of shit about this during labour...why have you written this, what do you know about it, blah blah, blah. At one point a doctor asked in a very aggressive tone 'are you a medical doctor?' My husband jumped in with 'no, both of our PhD's are in physics' having chosen to interpret the question as interest in our titles (which it can't have been because they weren't on our notes) but it did finally shut him up.

1. The thing with the stirrups I said earlier plus an interlude in which after a 4th round of break through pain and with pushing approaching I said I was going to need more power to the epidural if I was going to be able to push and the midwife basically refused to ask for the anaesthetist because everyone knows you can't push if you top up the epidural because you can't feel your legs....I point out that I have been at all times able to feel both legs and stomach muscles all the way through several top ups and the whole fucking problem is that the epidural is barely taking the edge off....this impasse was solved by the anaesthetist randomly showing up to check in on me and then telling the midwife to do one...

1. being told that the best way forward was spinal block plus forceps....then the spinal block not working....and just screaming and screaming in pain. I remember the doctor saying 'oh for gods sake, just knock her out' and then telling me he would have to hold my throat to stop me being sick...and very little else. Did I consent to a GA? I have no clue. Was I in a state to give informed consent to anything? Would I have done if of sound mind - probably. When I woke up I was astonished that both I and the baby had survived. ASTONISHED. I was just so very glad it was over, it would never occur to me to either complain, or ever go back to the hospital again if I could possibly avoid it.

shit sorry, that really is a massive pile of crap....I was just trying to address the cross over from birth trauma to bad care...

ICBINEG , no that was perfect

I love your 2 and 3, especially after the Monty Python quote last night!

"When I woke up I was astonished that both I and the baby had survived."

This is what causes PTSD of any variety.

"people are certainly mystified why noone actually complains about the Bounty women...the answer is that we have had every sense of self-possession and every sense of entitlement to respectful treatment thoroughly beaten out of us."

This reminds me of "there are four lights" it's a quote from Star Trek which is taken from 1984. You break a person to the point where they don't complain about anything else and comply with even the most unlike them orders.

Not crap at all, IC. I really felt for you and appreciate the time you put into your post :)

I'm not sure about posting on here as the thread has changed quite a bit since I started reading, but I feel like it would be quite cathartic to add my experience to it. Also I am appalled at how many other women out there who have had similar experiences. I thought I was in a massive minority. Some of my prenatal group did mention horrible experiences but we were all so battered and bruised and didn't really want to swap stories. I've heard a few horrors since though so maybe this is the norm and something should be done about it.

Also I want to say a big thank you to the midwives who have come on here and said how much they care about the mums they look after. You sound like lovely people.

My ds was born 5 years ago. I was on a syntocin drip (meconium in the waters... had to speed things up. Birth plan went out the window). Up till that point I'd been quite calm and didn't mind the couple of internals I'd had. I just felt they were necessary. At no point however did anyone say that I could have said no. Not even the prenatal class said that I could have refused if I'd wanted to.

After a few hours on the drip I was in quite a bad way and the contractions were very strong. I had an internal and was horrified to find I was still only 3cm. I had refused any pain relief apart from gas and air because of horror stories from NCT (that's another whole story) and midwives kept coming in to the room and saying 'Are you the woman that's not having pain relief?' and shaking their heads and smirking in disbelief. It wasn't very helpful. If I ever had to go through it again I'd have anything anyone offered! Anyway, after a while a consultant came in and asked me whether I wanted some help. I said yes... I would have done ANYTHING for some help. He said he was going to stretch my cervix. It was agony. I don't think I have known pain like it. I was so out of it that all I could do was writhe and shake. No way could I have formed the words 'STOP'. My husband looked on in disbelief as this butcher tried to stretch my cervix further open. The consultant kept saying 'Focus... look me in the eyes. Breathe'. It was all I could do to stay conscious let alone look the bastard in the eye.

Eventually he said, with a smug gleam in his eye, 'There, 7cm', wiped his hands, and walked out.

An hour later a midwife came and did another internal to see how far I was. 4cm. I made some sort of choking gasping noise and burst into tears. She said, 'Well, no consultant can stretch you dear, no matter how much like God he thinks he is'.

So basically this butcher had lied to me, had done a horribly painful and invasive internal for absolutely no good whatsoever.

Later he catheterised me. He was very violent and I thought he was going to leave me incontinent as he repeatedly shoved the tube inside me. I do remember him asking a midwife 'Is there something wrong with this woman? There is no urine.' He'd obviously decided at this point that I wasn't worth talking to. There was no urine because... well... there was no urine. I didn't need catheterising and wasn't asked. I don't know to this day why he did it.

Later, DS's heart rate dipped and the consultant came back to do ventouse. My husband has said he will never get over the sight of his man with his bloody great scissors cutting me to force the ventouse in. At the end of it all I had a beautiful baby son and didn't really think about the butcher much. One of the midwives did ask me very quietly if I would like to go to counselling. I think it was her way of saying that the consultant was a bloody great bastard who needed a sharp shock. Once I had my son in my arms I just couldn't be bothered to live thought it all again really.

I hope something can be done to stop this treatment of other vulnerable women who are totally powerless to do anything about it. When you're in labour you often can't string together a sentence... you're so out of it you don't know where you are, let alone have the strength of mind and character to stop someone violating you.

So sorry to hear your experience farewell. That is just terrible, terrible treatment.

How can it be okay to cause people pain and suffering just because they are pregnant or in labour? HOW?

Thanks ICBINEG. I'd be very interested to know if anyone else had been offered to have their cervix stretched. Is that normal or do you think it was one isolated consultant's God complex?