To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

Thank you. There is so much more I could say on this but daren't because the flashbacks and body memories will begin - I just hope as Jamie says that sharing here opens someone's eyes just a little. I was asked to write my experiences down for AIMS but wasn't strong enough. Maybe collectively we could do something?

These stories are horrifying. I am so angry for those of you who have told of your experiences.

It's brought back a very unpleasant experience of my own, which I hope no-one minds me recounting as it is nowhere near as terrible as the others on this thread...when I was 16 my mom took me to the doctors as my period was late and I thought I could be pregnant. The doctor had a really unpleasant, arrogant manner which was well known (Christ knows why my mother hadn't changed us to another surgery already), and he said I had to have an internal examination to determine whether I was pregnant - no offer of a urine test, which I don't think were as freely available in shops as they are now, and therefore I hadn't done one already. I asked him if this was necessary and he snapped 'I am not a painter and decorator, '. I felt so, so small and as though I had no choice. My mother waited outside and it was just me and the vile doctor who proceeded to give me an internal. I think he looked at my breasts too to check if I was pregnant.

When I left the surgery I burst into tears, I felt so incredibly degraded, dirty and ashamed. And I wasn't pregnant at all, as a simple urine test would have confirmed.

This was 24 years ago so hopefully things have changed a lot since then. I hope vulnerable 16 year old girls are not treated in such a rough, uncaring manner nowadays. I dearly wish I had refused the exam, but I didn't feel confident enough, and the person who should have been there for me (my mother) seemed too in awe of the doctor's status to question him. I still feel so angry and sad about it, so I can only imagine how terrible some of you must feel.

courgette That is what the Dr said, I didn't measure. He tried to get a cap on my babies head when I wasn't dilated (or was at 1cm) I was induced, had been having contractions for 10 hours and wasn't dilating. There was a health heartbeat on the monitor, no signs of distress in my baby (lots in me, I was so so ignorant about being induced).

Whatever the exact measurement of my cervix was is a moot point, or rather, only added to my distress as I wasn't dilated enough and there was no need to fiddle around, nor was their cause to use so much force, or to continue after being asked to stop.

Had my baby been in distress, I would have accepted the procedure as horrible and necessary, but without the necessity, it felt like abuse.

GettingStrong - you always have a choice. Unless there is a court order they cannot perform any procedure on you without gaining your informed consent first. There are very few situations where it is so life and death that there isn't a few seconds to explain what is happening and what they want to do.

I had a similar situation to you in that I pushed for 2 hours, and then they wanted to use forceps or possibly go to c-section. I was asked if I wanted a spinal block and signed a consent form. It took moments. I could have still refused though - doctors can't forcibly do something to you even with the intention of saving your life eg. blood transfusions for Jehovah's Witnesses.

GS, when you have surgery you're asked for written consent to each procedure the surgical team think might be needed under any circumstances. For instance, I consented to a keyhole operation and refused consent to go for a cut if the keyhole failed. As it turned out, the surgeon plugged away at a difficult keyhole purely because of this; we were both pleased with his results.

Clearly, a baby isn't going to wait six weeks for the rejected procedure, as I'd have done if my keyhole failed! But I think that far better information, ahead of delivery, would allow women and their HCPs to arrive at benchmarked birth plans. I can only see this as undesirable from the pov of an HCP who wants total control of another person's body, tbh.

I'm on my phone so will read later. Just watching Meaning of Life.

mum: What do i need to do?
Dr: Do? Why, nothing! You're not qualified to do anything.

aldi, I didn't think that it had come from you, I was just shocked he did that at 1cm you not only wasn't dilated enough, you probably weren't even dilating. I've had 4 premature babies and each time they left me alone until I was past 2cm and effaced.

gettingstrong, it is always the mother's choice. They will assume consent unless you withdraw it, but should be explaining what they are doing as they go along so that you have chance to say no. They can also explain to your birth partner/s so that they have chance to speak up on your behalf. Quite often they'll try to make it a done deal, so that you don't withdraw consent and I think as this thread has shown this is where the problems are coming from.

I had a crash section, but they still took time to explain three consent forms they needed signed and do other things to get me ready for theatre. It's not like, even with forceps that everyone is ready straight away, it needs to be set up so they should be making use of that time and I've seen them do that really well.

I think one of the biggest problems with birth plans is they're often a time table/ list of requirements etc. I have a template I made for my due date club that tries to state preferences and important information. I think the problem they have is they think they've seen it all and "ah bless, she wants candles, rose petals and whale song" without even looking. If you have something that says "I can not be put in stirrups" "I'm not suitable for an epidural, please go straight to GA in the event of a caesarean" (that's me) "I want to start off with minimum pain relief and will ask for more if necessary" etc and you make sure your BP knows what you're preferences are and can wave it at them if necessary then it's either going to help or strengthen your case if they try to go against it.

Possibly ignorance on my part, but why would they be pinning people down anyway? I thought that whole physical restraint business had been abolished after the scandals in the 70s.

They appear to be treating women in labour like violent criminals

Possibly ignorance on my part, but why would they be pinning people down anyway? I thought that whole physical restraint business had been abolished after the scandals in the 70s.

They do it because they know better. You are just another PITA mother2B who has probably been to those gobby woo NCT classes and you think that you know better than they do despite their training and experience. The fact that you know your own body is irrelevant because they have been taught how the average woman reacts and therefore how you should react. The fact that you are different is YOUR fault and not theirs.

Apparently.

Getting Stronger, if you want a sex parallel, think of marriage and a woman thinking "not tonight" but going on because her husband wants. I don't mean where he's pushed her, I don't want to sound like I'm putting any ok on rape, I'm sure everyone had days when their partner is more willing than them but they go along anyway. That's the grey area, doctor hasn't been told mum isn't happy but she's not saying it's an issue because she doesn't think she can. She might be totally happy out of it or she might be really upset.

Hope that makes sense, just seen how last it is

garlic, read my monty python quote! As funny as it is, it's true.

Wish I hadn't started reading this. Feeling sick now. I also had a procedure I didn't expect. It did fuck all to induce labour and my baby ended up in special care. Did they save my baby from worse or cause massive stress to me and ds ill never now. Massively triggering thread. Something needs to change in the NHS

I had 3 lovely midwives. We need to weed out the ones who have forgotten how to care, become disillusioned and can no longer put women first.

I think good midwives would welcome a campaign for change. It would help them give good care when colleagues are unsupportive.

Regarding forceps: I have heard of far more birth trauma both mental and physical following forceps. I was very clear on my birth plan that I did not consent to them and would not consent to them Be clear in early communication otherwise you reach a point when you are unable to have a section and your baby is at risk...so you have no choice. You do have a choice. Plan ahead to avoid forceps. (Give me a section any day over a brutal mechanical delivery damaging my internal organs)

I think forceps are a last resort. I think HCP think forceps are a cheap alternative to sections. That just shifts financial burden to the gynae dept for repair of pelvic floor

I think there is a difference between medical assault, and traumatic experience of a fully consented procedure.

Greater awareness of birth trauma would be a very valuable thing, but that's separate from the issue of continuous consent and inappropriate contact.

gs - that's not grey, you said no and fought them off.

miaow - I knew mine hadn't been good, this wasn't the birth that left me with ptsd and I wasn't as outraged as my doula but I put it part down to the frustration of missing it as I had my baby whilst she was on her way to holiday, I was 34 weeks though. Then I had a lovely birth about 6 months later where the mum was quite poorly and after giving her good chance they went to forceps. She got distressed so they stopped and waited for her to be ready. I saw my doula a few days later and was telling her I totally got the difference, I really understood what they'd done to me.

horry - the two are interlinked though.

Yes they're interlinked. But on this thread there are examples of assault by HCPs and also perfect procedures that happened to be traumatic despite being fully consented and sensitively performed and halted as soon as (or indeed before) consent was withdrawn.

I think there are two campaigns here: one supporting women who have been assaulted as part of a medical procedure (actually, any patient who has had any procedure without consent); and one supporting women with birth trauma and other associated gynaecological trauma (eg bad reactions to smears). Both involve making HCPs aware of the limits of their "power" and the primacy of consent, with increased attention paid to potentially sensitive procedures. I can see that they are linked but campaigns tend to have more success when they are more focused.

Assault is completely avoidable and already illegal; trauma is unpredictable and therefore not eradicable. Making it clear to patients and HCPs that procedures without consent are assault is a hugely important message. Saying to patients that you have the right to refuse consent at any point is hugely important. In the UK we have rights over our own bodies that only very senior courts can overrule.

Arse. Bold fail.