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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To not understand the assault/internals threads?

463 replies

GingerJulep · 21/07/2013 00:04

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

OP posts:
ICBINEG · 25/07/2013 17:06

I have never heard of it....I think you were spectacularly unlucky to cross paths with this monster.

courgetteDOTcom · 25/07/2013 17:12

Yes, the proper name is stretch and sweep. They can sometimes push you a little further, but it's also possible to close, especially if you've been upset.

OrmirianResurgam · 25/07/2013 17:15

"Like I say - both hospitals had the same degree of shit thrown at them - both had delays, lacks of resources, shit food, long waits for stuff - it was just the attitude that made the difference... even between a snarled "you're just going to 'ave to wait - got lots of other people to see ain't we?" and a "yeah sorry we're running a bit behind, I've made sure you're in the queue and they know you're waiting."

Quite agree. Attitude makes all the difference. I can put up with poor food, messy wards, minor delays, if the people I deal with are competent, friendly and helpful.

RevoltingPeasant · 25/07/2013 17:15

Farewell. Jesus. I really can't say how much I sympathise and wish that had never happened to you. Why does someone like that go into medicine?

As for the cervix thing, I also hang out on the childbirth board sometimes and there was a thread there about a year or 18 mos ago on that. It was by a woman who had had it done years before but couldn't stop thinking about it and wanted to know if it was normal practice. Afair she hadn't wanted to have another baby after thy experience :(

Anyhow the upshot was, this is a practice called manual dilation of the cervix which used to be practised a few decades back in this country and still is in some Eastern European countries. Someone on the thread linked to a Lancet paper from the late seventies or early eighties, and my God, it was awful.

It advised drs to not tell a woman what was going to happen to increas "compliance". It also referred to women who complied as docile and those who objected as highly hysterical.
I am seriously not making that up, this was peer reviewed stuff.

The OP there had later been told she had severe trauma to the cervix from what had been done to her. If you search childbirth threads for manual dilation I bet you could still find it, if you wanted, but it was quite upsetting reading.

OrmirianResurgam · 25/07/2013 17:17

farewell - that is horrendous Shock

Mum has many eye-watering tales to tell of her times in hospital but that was back in the 50s and early 60s and I assumed that by and large that sort of attitude was in the past. Maybe not.

RevoltingPeasant · 25/07/2013 17:17

Courgette I might be wrong but that other thread implied it was ore than a normal sweep as it is designed to get the mum up to 8-9 cm, not just start things off, iyswim. The paper referred to women being able to proceed to pushing within 20 min to 90 min of it.

farewellfigure · 25/07/2013 17:28

Thank you for the info about manual dilation. It's interesting that it's an Eastern European 'thing' as at the time my DH and I thought the consultant might have been Russian or from one of the Baltic states (from his accent). It's all a bit blurry looking back now.

At least now I have a name for what was done to me. In a way it's sort of comforting that he wasn't just being a bastard and liked hurting people. Does that make sense? I still don't understand why the midwives allowed it to happen though.

I complied because of a total inability to do anything else. I guess that makes me docile but at the time I remember feeling highly hysterical.

God, it just makes me shudder to think of women who are going to be giving birth in our hospitals. I remember talking to a woman after giving birth about how horrendous it was. She was older... maybe 60. She said 'It's amazing how women don't tell other women before they give birth how dreadful it can be... but then no-one would ever have a baby'. My lovely niece is 25 and one day she will marry her lovely boyfriend and will have a baby. And I guess I will join the ranks of women out there who don't tell their female relations how bloody appalling giving birth can be because I wouldn't want to scare her Sad

farewellfigure · 25/07/2013 17:36

I've just read another thread about Manual Dilation from 2012... at least 3 other women who had exactly the same procedure without having had it fully explained to them and not one of them was told how agonisingly painful it was. One of them said their consultant was Eastern European. I'm angry now... really really angry. How can a midwife sit back and let that happen? How can anyone think it OK to do a procedure like that when it doesn't bloody work anyway? I can't believe after 5 years I am so upset about it.

RevoltingPeasant · 25/07/2013 17:37

Agh just found the thread but can't get sodding iPad to paste link. If you are interested it's a thread by Beckamaw from Feb 2012 called Manual dilation?

Afraid I made up the bit about her not haing more dc, that was someone else!!

RevoltingPeasant · 25/07/2013 17:38

Farewell think that was the thread I meant :) it is the most chilling thing, what happened to that OP

courgetteDOTcom · 25/07/2013 18:00

I haven't heard of it being done so aggressively like that before. I've heard it done by kind midwives trying to get doctors off your back by telling them you're further along.

garlicagain · 25/07/2013 18:00

I understand why, when it looked as if I might manage to have a baby and asked my friends about it, they wouldn't answer questions except to say "It's worthwhile for the baby," and "Take all the pain relief you're offered, never mind the NCT!"

My mother said mine was the most difficult birth. I have faint forceps marks on my cheek. I'll ask her if she wants to talk about it - I almost feel guilty!

I've just seen threads on other forums about this manual dilation, saying it's routine in Australia and America (dated 2012.) They also say it doesn't work and the doctors don't warn them.

farewellfigure · 25/07/2013 18:06

It's funny isn't it that we go to prenatal classes, NCT whatever when actually it's our mothers and aunties and friends-with-babies who could be telling us stuff... warning us about stuff. Is it because we live in a more spread-out society now that we just don't automatically ask our female relations and friends about childbirth ie we don't tend to live so close to our parents and sisters? Or is because they'll just clam up and not want us to know the truth of how appalling it can be?

Emilythornesbff · 25/07/2013 18:20

It's because they / we don't want ppl to know how awful it can be I think farewell

MiaowTheCat · 25/07/2013 18:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HorryIsUpduffed · 25/07/2013 18:29

Tonight I go to a monthly NCT "mums to be" night where we talk about the "warts and all" of pregnancy and share previous pregnancy/birth details and advice, tips, etc.

I'm the one who always tells women that they are allowed to refuse induction and that they should certainly ask at every stage what the risks and benefits of each option are.

I also tell them to put the baby's first outfit in a labelled freezer bag so the new father doesn't hand the midwife a muslin cloth, a maternity pad, and your cardigan Grin

MurderOfGoths · 25/07/2013 18:31

Horry My NCT teacher told us we could refuse, wish she'd been there with me at the time!

BramshawHill · 25/07/2013 19:03

I don't think I'll be having another baby, my experiences weren't a fraction as bad as some I've read on here but thinking back about it makes me never want to do it again.

I've also realised how they presented me with options, I was developing pre-ec and the midwife came into the room and said 'Basically, you're being induced today. You're not going home.' When I asked if I absolutely had to be induced (because I was shit-scared!) She said I can be induced today, or have a sweep and be induced tomorrow.

I had no idea I could turn down the sweep, it was absolutely awful and I feel it was utterly useless since I was booked in for an induction the next day anyway.

It makes me angry that so many women are going through this. But yeah, I don't think I'm going to put myself in that situation again. My daughter will be an only child.

farewellfigure · 25/07/2013 19:17

My DS is an only child. I'm not sure I could hand on heart say it was totally because of what happened when he was born, but it probably played a part. I sometimes thought I would want another to know what a nice normal birth would be like... but you can't choose 'nice' as an option can you?

bordellosboheme · 25/07/2013 19:27

Haven't read the last half of these threads, but it does strike me that we are still living in medieval times as far as childbirth is concerned. Can we not show this thread to a government minister or something? Collectively mumsnet might have the power to reform things? They can put a man on the moon. There's got to be a better way than this?

courgetteDOTcom · 25/07/2013 19:29

I think it's because things have changed so much. If it was just a case of natural childbirth then the elder women would be the perfect people to talk to, but all the stuff in this thread, no one can account for that.

I've done NCT classes twice. I'm only allowed G&A because of my back and being a high risk VBAC, so the drugs side of things is irrelevant to me. I've not heard drugs or sections presented as a bad thing though. I've learnt about the spiral of intervention, stair casing drugs etc to help you to have the most natural birth you can and hopefully avoid all this of this thread but the alternatives weren't presented as a bad thing.

MiaowTheCat · 25/07/2013 20:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ICBINEG · 25/07/2013 20:51

My notes also had 'NO SWEEPS' written on them in bold. I have read the literature and they are no longer recommended to use as routine because of the combination of extreme discomfort some women experience and the lack of evidence of efficacy.

Every labour thread I go on I end up yelling that SWEEPS DONT WORK.

ICBINEG · 25/07/2013 20:53

Actually this is one bloody good reason for not getting antenatal info from your mother/aunts etc.

If your mother had a sweep and it didn't hurt her and she then went into labour you are likely to get a completely incorrect recommendation...

Our NCT leader showed us the actual evidence for and against along with common side effects for EVERYTHING.

RedToothBrush · 25/07/2013 21:00

courgetteDOTcom Wed 24-Jul-13 09:33:31
I wonder if MNHQ have read this thread?

I've always been aware of this happening but reading a thread like this is still shocking, it's not so isolated, this is happening to too many women. what scares me is how many posters don't seem to know they're suffering Birth Trauma! PTSD.

Courgette, I see that MNHQ have this on their radar. Its on mine and has been for a while. I've lost count of the number of women who say things about internals and consent. The number of threads on MN is quite frightening. There is an overriding issue of what women think they are 'allowed' to do or say and a theme of coercion.

I think I could answer the OP in a couple of ways; the first would be to get my post deleted, the second would be to say, you simply assume that HCP will always have your best interest at heart and will put them first when the reality is startingly different.

Women are made to feel guilty or selfish for refusing to consent. Ironically this tactic is actually being actively used by the NHS to persuade women to have cervical screenings, rather than presenting the facts about the risks and benefits (and there ARE risks). I'm guessing you are familiar with Margaret McCartney from her comments on Bounty. Her position on cervical screening is controversial but based on evidence based medicine and an opposition to this type of propaganda linky to her defence of her position. She is a doctor and openly says that she won't be screened (she defines diagnostic tests as something completely different).

I certainly am not against screening, for anyone who wants it and has made an informed decision to participate. What I am against is the bullying that goes on to make women go for it - and there are plenty of threads on MN that are sadly examples of this attitude - and the lack of ability to opt out that is written in to procedures and GP targeting (there is a lot more about this in Margaret's book which I highly recommend everyone to read to understand what is happening to healthcare and the NHS in this country even if you disagree with a lot of her opinions, particularly this most controversial one).

For me, the start of this, has been Bounty with good reason. Its about getting women (and men), hcp and people in power to properly understand what womens rights are, what they can and don't have to consent to. It creates the groundwork for being able to tackle more complex and serious problems like this.

Language is extremely important as other on this thread have stressed. Its about how you communicate as a HCP to your patient. So is understanding the idea of being vulnerable though not necessarily in a state where you can not make a decision due to limited capacity for whatever reason. The two are too often thought of as being mutually exclusive and that just wrong. Its about properly understanding that consent and informed consent covers a wide range of issues within maternity.

To me the OP is ignorant and naive beyond belief and still in a state where she believes this myth that HCP are infallible and beyond reproach or being guilty of abuse. She is complicit in allowing it to happen by suggesting that women are able to stop it from happening within our current culture. It is that attitude that stop people from speaking out and saying what happened to them for fear of being judged as weak.

Women who are assaulted are not weak. They aren't people who didn't do enough to prevent something from happening to them. They are simply victims of a situation that is not properly recognised nor seen as a problem.

The people who have said 'victim blaming' are bang on for that reason.

I hope in time that MN do follow this up with a campaign, but right now I do think they need to see through some of their other campaigns first, as if success they should make it easier to really make an impact with this. I'm in when they do decide to go for it though.

And I hope anyone reading this thread takes onboard a really important point here. The Bounty campaign fails down most with hospitals because women aren't making complaints. There are a lot of reasons why women don't make complaints about their maternity care; they are understandable. The trouble is that without them, hospitals are actively refusing to acknowledge the various problems that are happening on their wards.

We need to do everything in our power to encourage women to step forward and report each any everything that causes them distress even if it may seem someone trivial, unjustified or it may put pressure on staff. We need to create a culture where is it acceptable to complain about maternity care and it is taken seriously. Women should not worry about it being their word against a HCP. If the same HCP has done it to them, they will have done it to someone else - that means it is not your word against one person. Its several women word. Whilst I appreciate this might put extra pressure on staff, if it focuses them on saying "may I?" rather than "I'm just going to" its worth it.

My heart goes out to the women on this thread who have shared their awful stories. I hope the OP hasn't come back because she is ashamed, though I wish she had the guts and the grace to apologise for her insensitivity.