To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

There are people who don't have any more children after experiences like this because they can't face it and you post 'how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?'

You are at best thoughtless.

Go on girls (feel free, get angry about the gender assumption/diminutive terminology) enjoy yourselves!

OP, I understand where you are coming from, I did and will defend but that really wont help your case. Just a word to the wise.

Twirly no, she is ignorant. Long may she remain so.

Has anyone else not really cared though? I wasn't always entirely sure what they were doing down there but I thought it was something to do with the baby so was happy for them to crack on. Mind you my birth plan consisted of 'a baby at the end of it' for the first 2 and for the third I just added I'd like a midwife present for the actual delivery as she was off having a sarnie with dd2. Would have prefered her up to her pits in my cluf at that point tbh. (Not trying to be little other peoples experiences AT ALL btw, just wondering if I was a bit blasé?)

Actually I think I've answered my own question there, I wasn't bothered so it wasn't against my will.

When I was 16 weeks pregnant with my first, I went to hospital after vomitting pretty much for 7 hours straight and feeling horrid and a very vulnerable 18 years old. I was asked about doing a "swab". All the swabs I had in my life until then were external and they never said anything about it being internal. They asked my (built like a wall) partner to leave the room.

When it became obviously internal, I withdrew consent. I wanted to know why they were doing this (I'd already at this visit had my consent ignored about a blood draw). I said no very clearly and tried to sit back up and move away. I was then actually held down by two health care staff (I have no idea what they were, professionally, they weren't midwives or doctors, it was a gyno ward), and had a hard plastic cone shoved into me and...it was horrible. I normally have no issue with internals, this was awful. I was left surrounded by a lot of blood, hearing them talk about how they taught me a lesson. I can still hear it in my ears.

I was so ashamed I lied to my partner when he returned and didn't tell him the truth for over 6 years. I felt so violated. It effected all the later care I've had with medical professionals across my four pregnancies, I still can't go in without my partner at least in shouting distance.

And I was never given the results or the reasons for those tests. I almost miscarried.

Women have suffered horrible abuse at the hands of people who were suppose to care and you're response is to ask us why we didn't do something? You can be as offended as you like, how your attitude hurts women who have suffered medical violations hurt far more.

Not blasé. I didn't care how many internals I had during my labours etc because presumably they were all needed. I fucking hated that doctor for forcing her arm up during a contraction though and I also imagine if you've had previous issues / abuse etc it could well be very very traumatic.

littlesporks thats a truly horrific story

To be fair to the OP, did any of us get it until it happened to us? I think mine is the least traumatic story, and yet it still makes me shudder because I know it was wrong.

If someone had asked me before I had DC1 what I thought I would do if I was internally examined against my will, I am sure that my answer would be very similar to what the OP said, and would bear no resemblance to what actually happened.

Wouldnt you who have been through it have said the same?

I think the issue here is the wording of the OP, not the Q she has asked.

Your assumption that it wouldn't have happened had the women 'just done x' or 'just said y' puts the onus for the assault on the victim, and so yes, its victim blaming. Please choose your words more carefully in future if you wish to get advice and help from others who have experienced what you are fortunate to not have.

Bogeyface I'm eight weeks away from having my first (which I think explains the insomnia!) and I honestly don't know what I'd do if anything like that happened to me. I so hope I never have to find out.

I do agree though, the wording of the OP was horrendous. I don't think she meant to come across as unsympathetically as she did, and having read her updates, I think her question was a genuine one. But she's also not done herself any favours by not apologising when she clearly offended someone.

LittleSporks That's a horrendous thing to go through, I honestly have no words. Really, really vile.

Stunt I think that had the OP said "Well, when that happened to me, I kicked them in the face/closed my legs/ screamed blue bloody murder, so you should have done the same" then yes, it would be victim blaming. But she didnt. She said that she didnt understand why people didnt do that. That isnt victim blaming, it is naivety and she has been reeducated. But I agree that an apology for her wording wouldnt go amiss.

The wording is a major problem, the refusal to apologize (and joking about it and playing the wounded party) even more so. Asking victims of violence "why didn't they just..." is pretty nasty and has commonly been used to beat and silence victims.

If I were asked, I probably would have said I'd cry loudly and my partner would stop it. Got the first part right at least, damn thick closed doors. I was silent during other mistreatment if he wasn't there, I'd panic so badly, I ended up putting please be nice to me and don't send my partner away on my birth plans I was so scared. But I had very little faith in people I didn't know not trying to dominate me and far less faith in my abilities at 18, so I'm probably not the person to ask.

If women can have sex and be raped with their legs together, I don't see how it could prevent an internal from a medical profession that has power over a vulnerable patient. Stirrups were designed to keep women were medical professionals wanted them - they were used on enslaved women to get the roots of most of modern ob/gyn knowledge. And very large pregnant women aren't exactly known for being athletic or fast, particularly during or after labour. In a medical professional / patient relationship, it's pretty much always the medical professional in control and has more power, more so in a vulnerable situation like labour. I just don't get how anyone can ask a victim why didn't they do something, even more so with so much stacked against them. Asking how to prevent, sure; asking if we'd do something differently, okay; asking if it's something particularly to worry, fine (No, it isn't Eilidhbelle, most professionals are fine - just people and most are nice but a few aren't, but keeping a person with you, getting professional's names, and making any fears clear to them has seemed to help and in the rare situations that it does happen it makes complaining a lot easier particularly from an emotional standpoint. I felt unable to complain as I didn't know anyone's name and I didn't have any witnesses). But to ask victims of medical violations why we didn't kick people in the face and run for it, and mocking people's pained responses, is just nasty. You're far nicer than me Bogey, I just can't get past the responses to being called out on the harm she's obviously done by being more hurtful.

I hope a nice medical person comes on this thread or if anyone else could tell me, I'd like to know what that white cone was. It was a thick plastic, it looked like a cone with the tip cut off, when they did the internal they obviously scraped well above the hole in the top. I've never seen anything like it before or since - even with three other pregnancies and pap smears, and I've always been too scared to ask cause just thinking about it has brought tears, and I can't remember if it was smooth or bumpy just a wide white cone missing the tip and after they pulled it out there was so much blood. I only went in with acute vomiting, no bleeding, I was told I just needed IV hydration, and I ended up losing so much blood and the pain, they ended up doing a scan to ensure I wasn't miscarrying. It was risky for a while, he's now thankfully almost 9. It was on an obgyn ward, because I was only 16 weeks, they called it a swab and I've had many internals since (and some before) without any problems, paps are a doddle for me, if someone could tell me what it was and what most likely they did - as I was never told, never got any kind of results from it and it wasn't included in my notes - I got all my notes from his pregnancy and there wasn't anything other than tests were done to ensure I was pregnant (blood were taken for it) - I would be very appreciative. At the time, I really thought they were trying to abort him they were so rough and so much blood and they said such horrible thing, it would be very nice to be able to put it to rest, if something like that every can be.

Oh, I've worked myself in such a state, triggers are such a nasty thing.

Go on girls (feel free, get angry about the gender assumption/diminutive terminology) enjoy yourselves!

Wow - you ask people to basically justify their behaviour during the most traumatic event of their lives and then post that?!? Seriously!?!?

I have never been examined against my consent but I can still understand how the situation can arise.

Firstly have you ever been in a life threatening situation? I have - you don't react the way you think you will. I look back on those occasions and think "What!?!?". The "fight or flight reflex does funny things to you. Evolutionarily it probably works best if you are being chased by a lion. It's not so great in a clothing fire.

Secondly it is very hard to overcome lifelong programming. We are all taught as children not to assault healthcare professionals, not to kick people in the face generally, that "no means no" and people will respect that. My mum once told me about a fire in a department store. On the top floor was a cafe. The sort of cafe where you pay the bill at the end. A large proportion of people in that cafe died in the fire - more than you would expect. It was felt that people wasted vital escape seconds once the alarm went off worrying about paying their bill.

If what you are really saying is "I'm about to have a baby and worried this will happen to me - how can I prevent it" then you need to apologise and explain this.

Sounds like a speculum little I have had metal ones, clear plastic disposable ones and white plastic ones too in my career as a uterus owner. Although disposables are used now for smears etc, I found that the metal ones were less painful.

My heart goes out to you, I can see why you feel that you have no proof in order to complain but there are other ways of making sure no one else suffers as you did. When I suffered severe birth trauma (nothing to do with internals) I ended up talking to Sheila Kitzinger for hours at a time. She used what I told her in one of her books (Birth Crisis). She was very helpful and understanding, I am sure she would talk to you too. I can PM you the number if you would like.

I didn't have to be raped to understand that when you're raped fighting them off is not that easy, neither did I have to be assaulted during a birth to know it either. Being in either situation didn't change that.

I was put in stirrups despite having long term pelvic issues. My doula threw herself across me and the midwife tried to argue with them. I tried to pull myself out but my legs don't work in that position. I was barely able to walk for weeks later.

My mum had her legs hoisted onto midwife's hips who then said "push" so she kicked her over. She wasn't in a difficult position to move in though and I doubt there's many who can do that.

I can understand what the OP is trying to ask, but it was an offensive way to ask and I really felt for INeed when I saw it.

When you are a first timer, you do trust the midwives to do their best because you have no experience to tell you otherwise. When I arrived at the maternity ward in labour, the midwife refused to give me pain relief until she did an internal. As soon as her hand went in it was extremely sore. I shouted at her to get out and she didn't. "Nearly done". I told my husband to pull her hand out but he deferred to the midwife's authority. Second time round, he knew that my request trumped any midwives' demands. But then I had the baby half an hour after the midwives showed up and they struggled to get my BP let alone in my vagina!

My top tip would be brief your birth partner on what is acceptable for you and make sure they will support you. Shouting at the HCP to stop does not mean they will unfortunately.

I had a doctor shove her thumb up my arsehole with no pre warning what so ever after I gave birth to my son. Fortunately I am not adverse to such things but some women may be sensitive in that area and doctors really should check!

OP

It is quite a simple explanation

I didn't want to die
I didn't want my baby to die

I was alone. I was terrified. I was vulnerable.
Childbirth/gynaecological smears etc are situations where you trust the professionals to know what they are doing and to have your best interests at heart.

It is also the strangest of situations where you are smiling at your aggressor because you feel utterly powerless and don't want them to let you suffer/get on their bad side when lives are at stake.

I have had smears - not pleasant. I have had internals - not pleasant.
I have had good midwives - trying to be gentle, reassuring, explaining
I have had bad midwives - ignoring my cries/pleas, brutal, 'practical' who treated me like a piece of meat.

With DC2 I had a midwife practically fist me.
With DC3 I was alone and a midwife basically said 'I am breaking your waters now' and it took her three times and was excruciating.
Same midwife said very dismissively 'yes,yes,yes' as I begged her not to let me die - was in labour with no pain relief, nothing and panicking.
Same midwife forced me into stirrup position to give birth in, gave me my son to hold whilst I was practically falling off the bed/waiting to have stitches done/still crying and then pressed down on my stomach so hard
I shrieked and scared my baby who then cried with me

Please tell me what I should have done in that situation?
No you cannot do an internal to see how many cm I am
No you cannot break my waters even though I am 5cm dilated
No you cannot push me into whatever positions suit you
No you cannot press down on my abdomen for the afterbirth

Then what?
I am sent home?
I end up with a synctocin drip?
I cause my baby to be starved of oxygen?
I develop complications?

I say no to all four and I give birth in an empty room if the midwife buggers off as I am not cooperating?

I reiterate:
I didn't want to die
I didn't want my baby to die

Littlesporks

Don't care whether it is unmumsnetty I am sending you hugs and
I hope someone medical is here in a minute to confirm whether it was a speculum but not sure whether that would bring closure or not.
Sounds brutal and vicious and am very and for both 18 year old you and you now.

xxx

You poor woman, Sporks, how dreadful

I'm shocked & upset by many of the replies here already. I am also shocked, offended and angry at you, GingerJulep. Your wording in the OP is exactly what people say about rape victims, when victim-blaming. The reasons why women can't "just" prevent unwanted, forceful penetration during gynae processes are exactly the same, too. Your physical position is vulnerable because it prevents counter-attack. Once somebody or something is inside you, you can't do much because the risk of injury is so great.

I've never given live birth, by the way. I have been raped and I have submitted to a grossly invasive cap fitting - the woman was nearly in to her elbow, and just dismissed my protests.

You didn't even THINK about "why" - despite, evidently, having read some of the threads - and then chose to follow up with patronising put-downs. What effect d'you think you've had on women here? Have you enjoyed it?

OP

I am due my 6 weeks check next week. Last time around I refused to go for 6 months. I have to go next week as I had bright red bleeding lasting for four weeks and as I had tearing of vagina and rectum I need both checking.
My gynae is a nice enough guy - perfunctory but capable, tries to get everything over and done with as quickly as possible including dildocam and often has to get me to aid and abett the internal by having me put my fists under my buttocks so I am at the right angle.

All of which I am going to frigging hate.
According to you I can Just Say No.

Really?

Putting my health at risk puts my kids at risk.

I know you didn't mean any harm by your original post and you might think I am exaggerating or being a dramallama or have a low pain threshold or am not as assertive or as empowered as you to be able to refuse examinations.

But often it is not as clear-cut as that. I wish you the best if you ever find yourself in a similar situation. But I really really hope you don't.

There's a good article that you might find useful for your partner to read, it's called Difficult Birth a Dad's Perspective, should be easy to find on a Google search. It'll help arm you against this kind of thing.

I totally agree with garlicagain.