To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

I had hoped that GingerJulep would have come back and apologised for the insensitivity and offensiveness of this thread, and the hurt it has caused. I am saddened to see that she hasn't.

I had an induction 2wks before my edd (due to GD) and spent a week having things inserted, removed and constant internals. It wasn't offered as a choice, I didn't think I could say no.

For the most part, the mws were nice about it. The consultants were not. The last consultant who tried told me off for (instinctively) moving away from her, then said do you want me to stop? I thought she meant pause ie stop shoving her hand further in for a sec so I said yes. She whipped it out and then said I was refusing to cooperate. Warned that she would write this on my notes and that my eventual Caesarian was 'by maternal request' (at this point I'd been having mildish contractions for 4 days but no progression beyond 1cm - DS just wasn't ready).

My vagina burned for months afterwards, despite not actually giving birth through it. I am not sure how I will ever conceive dc2 as I still have flashbacks every time I try to have sex (9 months on).

My experience wasn't as bad as some for sure but I don't think it was right.

MsJJ it sounds like you're suffering BT and that you may have some damage. Do speak to your GP, as I said earlier, it's no way to enjoy your baby.

MsJupiter, your experience was indeed bad. Don't feel obliged to downplay it - it's wrong, and appalling, that you were treated so badly. That consultant should be shot.

You may find it helpful to talk to the Birth Trauma Association I think that might be a good idea - you are still suffering from the way you were treated now.

Thanks, that's appreciated.

Another here who consented to an internal exam and got a membrane sweep to which I hadn't consented.

I am still angry about it three years on; about the experience of the sweep itself, the way the breach of trust adversely affected my birth experience and because I should've complained and didn't - she assaulted me yet I felt guilty at the thought of getting her into trouble.

This thread had brought up some unresolved feelings.

Such horrible attacks on so many women ... :( Thank you for sharing your stories, and I hope it's some comfort to be able to share & know you're understood

There was a big, very persistent movement against 'factory birth' in the 1970s. Labouring women were being slammed down in rows; induced to hospitals' timetables; scraped, sliced and stitched without consultation and often, allegedly, without need. Aged 20, I wasn't aware of the full horror being inflicted on people, but the fury of campaigners was evident.

The violence & cruelty you're describing is the outcome of improved, woman-centric obstetric care

From here, it looks like time for Phase Two of that protest!

Why the hell are they wasting Social Services' time like that?? I'm very sure that a woman screaming on the labour ward is nowhere at all on their list of priorities.

Sorry to all the posters who have had such bad experiences. I can identify with a lot of these.

A couple of months ago I had internal examinations done that were really traumatic. Mine wasn't a birth situation, I was having examinations to check for retained productions of conception and possible infection. The doctor said she was going to do a "swab" which I assumed would be like a small cotton swab, as that is what I have had before, and I agreed to that, but then she started to ram in some kind of large plastic cone (sounds like what little sporks was describing!) That was really painful and shocked me because I felt I had no warning since she didn't explain it at all.

I burst into tears and started really really panicking, I was trying to resist it just out of reflex and they just kept saying "relax". When I actually managed to speak I told the nurse that I was finding it really hard because I was raped when I was younger. She didn't really acknowledge what I had said, just kept telling me relax, breathe etc... The doctor did not offer to stop or show any sympathy that I was clearly distressed, just said like it won't take much longer... They held my knees down onto the table to keep my legs open and carry on for about 5 more minutes while I was sobbing :( Afterwards I found that some of the tests they did were not even necessary, e.g. one of the "swabs" with the cone was for chlamidyia which I knew I definitely did not have as I had recently been tested already. If they had asked and explained before doing, they could have saved me some of the unnecessary ones.

The doctor made a comment about why am I reacting like that, how do I deal with smear tests, which made me feel really stupid. I am in my mid 20s, I've only had one smear test before and the smear I had was not traumatic like this as that nurse then was nice, reassuring and told me what was going to happen. These recent internals were much more painful as whatever they used seemed bigger than a normal speculum and it was the shock of having a large foreign object shoved in my vagina without me being informed or consenting

This experience has been affecting me a lot. As well as having flashbacks to my previous rape while the examinations were happening I have started having them occasionally during sex and I keep feeling really panicky just before penetration even though I know my partner doesn't want to hurt me and would always stop if he was hurting me or I was upset at all.

I'm really angry about how they handled it all because I think anyone would have felt upset and humiliated by that and they need to treat people with more sensitivity, and it is definitely that experience which has triggered my rape flashbacks and putting me back in a much worse place about that again.

I haven't complained about it but I just got a letter telling me to book in for a smear so I think I will have to talk to my GP about all this beforehand to try to ensure I get someone sensitive and understanding for that.

I wonder if MNHQ have read this thread?

I've always been aware of this happening but reading a thread like this is still shocking, it's not so isolated, this is happening to too many women. what scares me is how many posters don't seem to know they're suffering Birth Trauma! PTSD. I thought I had PND, I was diagnosed with it, it took me well over a year, possibly pushing two to realise when someone posted on a forum asking mums to answer a questionnaire for her university research, I sobbed through it and at the end there was a statement that if you'd been affected by the questionnaire to click the link. I read the whole BTA website in one sitting crying many eyes out realising this was me.

There has got to be something we can do!

I am glad this is being talked about. I am sad that so many people go through it.

It happened to me, I was told was going to happen and led to believe it was in my and my baby's best interests, I wasn't told details, I was high on diamorphine and my DH, like me, didn't realise what this stupid, rough, thoughtless arse of a Dr was going to do.

My youngest is 5 years old and I can still feel that moment. It wasn't so much the pain either, but the feeling of being violated.

And, there was no need to put a 'cap' on my baby's head (heart monitor?) as we were getting strong healthy readings from the standard(no idea what it's called sorry) heart rate monitor.

The Dr also laughed and said "Well, I should have known I couldn't get it on but it was worth a try right?" (Erm no, I was 1cm dilated, he needed 3 fingers to attach the cap, the sums didn't add up even in my drug induced haze).

I was extremely vulnerable during labour. It sounds stupid but I never considered I was ALLOWED to say no. I asked questions all through both my labours and that seemed to irritate people! My care with my first child was excellent, but there's a reason I'm stopping at two. There were a catalogue of events that happened for no other reason that maternity staff not giving a shit... I'm still shocked by the attitudes that night, I work with midwives and academics and KNOW how dedicated they are, how in general they do give a shit!!

I find it very difficult to have smears/coil changes, anything involved with internals now, though before my awful experience I was pretty strong and matter of fact about these things. Actually just writing about it is making me tearful and ashamed.

Courgette DOTcom this had to be worth a mn campaign! Can we report this thread and ask mnhq?

I complained about certain things that happened during my dc's birth including the vaginal examinations that were given with no warning or consent and received a fairly rubbish reply that didn't address what had happened at all and an apology for me being upset. This thread had inspired me to take it further and I will write another letter because I don't feel that this issue is being taken seriously and it is obviously happening a lot

GingerJulep stated in one of her posts that she was past her due date so I'm assuming that shes having/had her baby and thats why she hasn't been back to this thread. I found her posts really offensive and upsetting but I think/hope it was down to ignorance rather than a genuine wish to cause offence. Hopefully we have managed to educate her and anyone else who thinks you can just shut your legs or kick hcps in the face! I truly hope that she doesn't find out the same way a lot of us have that its not as easy as that.

GingerJulep in response to your op I DID tell them to stop, I couldn't kick, I couldn't speak, I hand 3 fingers in my virtually closed cervix you see? I was pretty immobile with horror.

DH stepped in, when he realised I was frozen with terror... he asked calmly THREE times to stop, but the Dr only stopped when DH threatened to make him (DH is non-violent, not a thug, well spoken, calm, practical, but everyone has a moment when please just won't do!).

Had the procedure been explained to me properly I would have refused, as it was not necessary, but it wasn't, and then it was too late.

Hello

Thanks for the reports about this thread. We're going to have a proper read and a think. Just to warn you, we're a bit chocker at the moment in terms of campaigns and awareness-raising so this might not be something we can take up in the near future, but just from scanning the thread we can see that this is an issue that many of you feel very strongly about - unsurprisingly given some of the shocking experiences you've had.

Thanks,
MNHQ

I have had 3 years of CBT due to being gang raped aged 17. My psychologist cried with me and said it was one of the most traumatic accounts she had ever had to listen to. I have PTSD and all over my maternity notes it has been written in red ink - "PTSD, no internals, no male staff".

I have had several children (sheer bloody mindedness - I always wanted a big family and the rapists will not win). During hospital births DESPITE my birth plan drawn up in conjunction with my psychologist, DESPITE red inked notes, DESPITE meetings with supervisors of midwives in the weeks before the birth, I have been forcibly held down, forcibly examined, had domestic staff wandering into the delivery room to get cleaning equipment mid examination, had a consultant examine me in front of a team of medical students, been told off for being "silly", asked how I managed to conceive, been humiliated and so on. I have been pushing out a baby while a midwife cheerily asked me "So, were you raped by someone you knew?" Midwives have treated me like a tiresome, neurotic fool. Not all midwives - I will never forget one midwife who held me through labour and kept repeating "No one is going to hurt you, I'm here." But she was an exception. After one birth I needed psychiatric help. The mental health nurses were of the opinion that I had been raped all over again.

My last few children have been born unattended at home, on my own. They have been cathartic and empowering births that have helped me to heal, but the pain, trauma and terror will never completely go away. OP you are living in some kind of beautiful dreamland if you think it's as simple as kicking someone in the face. I hope you don't have to wake up.

bloody that's appalling. Thank goodness for that one wonderful midwife.

I have always had extreme pain during smear tests and so was all over anyone trying to examine me during pregnancy. I practically had them sign a rules of engagement document before they could touch me.

However I did not want to do stirrups. At all. But a midwife convinced me to 'just try it' so I did. I found that the pressure of my enormous bump on my diaphragm/lungs meant that having expended all the oxygen in my body pushing I could not catch my breath and became panicky. I tried to lift my legs down myself and couldn't, I said I needed out to the midwife and she said 'no, your fine' I screamed at her to get me out and she didn't. Thankfully my husband just reached across her and rescued me, and calmed me down. I cannot imagine what it would have been like if my husband hadn't been there.

My heart goes out to everyone who ever found themselves powerless or overwhelmed during labour.

What the hell is the matter with these so-called professionals who utterly ignore what has been made very very clear to them in triplicate ?!!? Are they thick ? Are they sadists ? Are they on a power trip ? They certainly shouldn't be in what's supposed to be a caring profession.

Bloody - words fail me, I'm glad that at least some of your birth experiences haven't been the utter nightmares you were subjected to. And Icbineg, thank god your husband was there to intervene. Some of these people clearly think they are above the law when they assault vulnerable women in the name of medicine.

bloody, you should have got a doula, I'd love to have been there and fought for you!

aldi, if this was your youngest, why were they putting a clip at 1cm? Most women in subsequent pregnancies spend most of their pregnancy at least at 1cm!

I think the right to say no is something that everyone should know, as well as the right to decide what happens to your body during your birth. I think men need to know that they can stand up for their partner.

Thank you for responding, Rowan

Thank you, Rowan.

Oh
My
God

Bloody, I'm so sorry they did that to you. Thank you for telling your story.

This makes me want to cry.

I did not mean to imply earlier that this is a wasted thread. Allowing us to share our experiences may be therapeutic. I hope so.

I just doubted the OPs intention. Not coming back and apologising suggests she might not be what she seemed. Or maybe she is just gutless.

Jamie, she did say she was overdue so she could be having her baby.

ICBINEG - I am sorry about your experience with stirrups. I'm sorry you were tricked by the midwife into using them - no doubt for her benefit and not yours. Seriously, how can anyone think that lying on your back with your legs apart and pushing uphill is the best way to give birth. No wonder women can't protect themselves from unecessary internals if you are so exposed.

All the negative experiences that I suffered when giving birth to my DS are coming back reading this thread. The lies and coercion by HCPs to get me to do what they wanted. I had people touching me without my permission. I had students in my room gawking at my nudity. No one introduced themselves to me. My DH and I were frozen in a state of horror as the events unfolded. It was never about me or my baby, but all about the midwife and working to her timetable, constant monitoring, ticking of boxes after every non-consensual exams, an episiotomy after I begged her not to. My DH said the she was hiding the scissors behind her back and she cut me before he had a chance to stop her. She waved the forceps and beat them against the bed. She threatened me with them if I didn't put more effort into pushing.

I only have my DS. I avoid healthcare and doctors. I can't bear to be touched.

I hope there is a campaign to stop the abuse of women in childbirth. They need protecting.