To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

[courgetteDOTcom]

Because they're the HCP and we're the silly girl who got pregnant. You see this attitude from the first visit to your GP to being discharged from hospital when you get the contraception talk.

lozster

1) how does a VE during birth compare to say a smear or a procedure such as hsg or embryo transfer? I mean in terms of what you feel
I can only comment on a smear, but it's a lot more relaxed, there's no time constraints, you're not in pain, you're not dealing with them disrupting the natural hormonal effects of labour.

2) as I understand it, might there not be a genuine need to know how far along you are (eg is the induction working, is it the most appropriate time to site an epidural/give a dose of pethidine)
As I've said before there is a place for any intervention, but it shouldn't be the norm. If you're happily(ish - as much as you can be in labour) labouring away then there's no need. If you're begging for more pain relief and they need to know if there's still time, then that's one of the factors you consider when asking them for a higher pain relief and one of the things that adds to the spiral of intervention. If you've consented to an induction then VEs are a part of that, but when you're into labour you can still say no to them.

[thebody]

after 4 kids I honestly see the problem as a communication one and basic care and good practise.

I don't think most HCP are creepy sickos who give internals at the drop of a hat because THEY want to but even.or especially ,when someone is in pain and frightened clear concise and genuinely warm communications are vital.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Having read this thread, alternating between open-mouthed shock and tears in my eyes at the accounts on here, I cannot understand why GingerJulep has not come back to apologise grovellingly for her insensitivity and frankly nasty comments.

Ladies on this thread - my heart breaks for you, and I wish I could offer you all a hug right now. You are brave, amazing women!

[ifyourehoppyandyouknowit]

I'm shocked at some of the recent posts on here too. It is so sad. BUT, lobzster not everyone has a bad experience; as I said upthread I had lovely midwives who were gentle and got my express consent. There are great midwives out there, I hope you have a good birth. I only had one VE, which was to check where we were when we 'check in' and it was painful, but the midwife gave me some gas and stopped when I asked. I didn't actually have another one as I just felt 'ready' to push and the midwife said she could tell with a quick visual check and a gentle probe that we were good to go. When it all went a bit wrong at the end, it was still fine. So, what I'm saying is that there are great HCPs out there, with good practice and women are having good births, but sadly not everyone. I would brief your partner (let them read this thread) so that they can advocate for you when you're in labour.

[Itchywoolyjumper]

I don't think most HCP are creepy sickos who give internals at the drop of a hat because THEY want to but even.or especially ,when someone is in pain and frightened clear concise and genuinely warm communications are vital.

Exactly this.

[JohnnyUtah]

Op I haven't read the other thread. And your intentions may have been ok. But your posts are thoughtless, honestly.

[StuntGirl]

This thread is horrifying.

Absolutely agree woolyjumper So sad for these women :(

[catsmother]

This is a horrid thread - recounting so many stories where women have been assaulted, and NO, there are all sorts of reasons why you don't do what you imagine you might have done when it's actually happening to you!

In my case it was more than 23 years ago but I still find it very upsetting and I'm still full of fury - at myself - for not reporting the arrogant male registrar who decided, without my consent to perform a sweep on me. I was a week overdue and, word for word, what was said to me was that he was "just going to have a little look to see how things were progressing". I didn't find it at all unusual to be accompanied into the examination room by a female nurse as a chaperone but I remember feeling rather confused when she put her arm very firmly around my shoulders - whether this was to comfort me or restrain me I don't know. In that instant I felt the most gut wrenching sickening pain and screamed out - and was told "almost there". I didn't know what the fuck was happening - remember I'd been told that they were looking - as I'd been looked at on a number of previous occasions and was in pain, scared and bewildered because at that time I had no idea what the hell was going on.

The arrogant bastard didn't even have the courtesy to explain after what he'd done or what he'd hoped to achieve. And I was far too shocked to confront him - which is my everlasting regret because I should have had his guts for garters for what he did. I was simply told that "things should start moving soon now" and off he went. It was only after getting home, reading my notes, and further research after I had my son that I put it all together and realised what had happened.

At no stage did I give my permission for that. It had no effect in any case as my son was born 10 days later - not that it would ever have been acceptable even if my labour had started soon after. I think I was in such literal SHOCK that all my usual self confidence vanished and it was only later than I realised what I "should" have done. The anger I still feel is indescribable .... not least because the nurse obviously also knew what was about to happen and even she didn't have the decency to ask my permission, let alone explain any of it. Maybe she was scared of Mr Bigshot arrogant consultant too ?

And then - to my eternal regret - even after I had my son I did nothing. I obviously had the whole new baby thing, lack of sleep, I moved 6 weeks after birth, it was his word against mine etc etc but I so so wish I'd complained for all I was worth - and not just complained at "poor treatment" or "bad service" or some wishy washy whingeing - but had put forward a complaint of assault against him. I don't give a flying fuck whether it was technically a medical procedure or not - he hurt me, he hurt me really badly, and he made me feel violated and stupid - like I was a slab of meat without feelings or intelligence ..... far too lowly for him to waste his arrogant breath on. And the nurse colluded with that - which makes me feel even worse - a woman allowing another woman to be assaulted like that.

I "could" have said "stop" but I didn't get the bloody chance to - and because I wasn't expecting any sort of procedure, my head was in an entirely different place and if you know what I mean, it kind of took me a while to realise that something was happening I didn't want, didn't like, didn't understand. And after .... well, he was big Mr Important consultant wasn't he - and while I was still there, although I knew something had happened, I still didn't know (at that stage) what it was .... I was just stunned. I guess I more or less froze before coming to my senses a while later.

I'm not a stupid woman - far far from it - not that intelligence should have any bearing on how acceptable it is to assault a woman of course but somehow the fact he couldn't even be bothered to speak to me like a normal adult human made the whole thing even worse. He was so abrupt - and dishonest about his intentions. Oh ..... and to add insult to fucking injury, do you know what the only other thing the ignorant pig said to me that day was ? It was "did you have trouble conceiving ? " in what I am still convinced was a sneery tone of distate - I just murmured "no" - when I should have asked why he was asking me that ...... but I sussed his probable reason while I was still in the antenatal clinic that day, because I have rather a lot of hair down there, and I assume the sexist pig was suggesting I might have PCOS.

I just left there in pain like I'd been kicked in the stomach, feeling utterly used, and insulted by his unnecessary personal remark about something I'm very sensitive to, and feeling like the lowest of the low. I was knocked for six and couldn't quite believe what had happened. And THAT is why I didn't stand up for myself I'm sorry to say.

[catsmother]

Sorry .... didn't mean to go off on one quite as much as I just did.

[JamieandtheMagicTorch]

I hope that those of you who have contributed to this thread and dredged up painful memories for somone else's gratification, have not done so needlessly ( i was on the other thread).

I think the fact this OP has not come back speaks volumes.

[courgetteDOTcom]

I think the difference is that this is an unusual area of healthcare in that we're not sick, but these are doctors and nurses (I know there's a difference) their job is to treat the sick and I think they can forget that there is a difference, sometimes they are there to save lives but most often they're not. I think you see it more in the US with their health system than here but it's a similar thing.

[maja00]

Actually I think it's more that some HCPs can forget they are dealing with people, and start to see women as obstacles to doing their jobs as quickly/efficiently as possible. Not taking time to explain things, doing extra procedures at the same time without consent, not stopping when a woman asks because they are "almost done" - they need to get the baby out quickly, the bed cleared, the case signed off and the women just get in the way.

[PoppettyPing]

Holy mother of fuck. This thread is making me feel sick.

Why there is not international outrage at what can only be described as widespread state-sanctioned assault of women, is fucking beyond me.

[PoppettyPing]

Not that it makes a difference but just wanted to add I am so fucking sorry to read all of your traumatic stories and my heart seriously hurts on your behalves. Jesus Christ. And a triggering thread to kick it all off again.

[RevoltingPeasant]

Poppetty yes indeed. And no, the thread hasn't been a waste, because it has let a lot of people see what exactly women are going through.

I have to say I feel honestly a bit nauseous after reading some of this though.

catsmother that was a really eloquent post. I think you have described exactly what it feels like to be assaulted. Somehow, you just feel.... stupid or ugly or unwanted. to you

[Icedink]

Horrible thread - op I really hope you don't ever find out how it feels to be treated in such a way. I notice you said you were overdue so maybe you are busy atm but I hope you come back and read the responses and apologise for the flippant victim blaming in your posts.

I find it so shocking that so many other women have gone through this. I thought there must be something wrong with me to make the mws and doctor think I didn't deserve the 2 minutes it would take them to explain what they wanted to do and ask me if I was happy for them to go ahead. I had never heard of this happening to anyone else before I joined mn, it really damaged my confidence and self esteem to think that all other women deserve to be treated with respect and I deserved to be violated and sneered at.

to all the women on this thread, I believe you and it wasn't your fault.

[SwedishHouseMat]

I had a stretch and sweep without consent. I was told by the registrar that he wanted "a little look". I too was held down by the stoney faced midwife who said nothing to me throughout my screaming at him to stop - apart from "you might need this" as she threw a sanitary towel at me and left.

[courgetteDOTcom]

I have heard of other doulas throwing themselves over the mother, shouting "She does not consent!" at staff. One even admitted that the mum was far too gone to talk but she could see and knew from before that she didn't want what was happening so she leaned in as if to talk to her and said to them that she didn't want what they were doing and didn't consent, I don't get the impression this is something new or rare.

[MurderOfGoths]

courgette Thank god for wonderful people like that.

I spoke to DH about it the other day and he said he wishes he'd said something at the time but thought the doctor knew better than him. Wish I'd had a doula there to help me.

[courgetteDOTcom]

I said further up to look for an article about difficult birth a dads perspective. I think it should be mandatory reading for all dads.

[MurderOfGoths]

That sounds good, DH is normally really good at disagreeing with authority (often too good) but I think because he was worried about me it changed it for him. Think it's often forgotten that it's damn scary for the dads too.

[McNewPants2013]

This thread hasn't been a waste, as i didn't even know i could have refused an VE in labour with my DC. I trusted the MW looking after me and thought it was just stardard.

However thankfully i don't have a horror story to add to some of the treatment some women has been through.

[edam]

miaow, that's horrifying. It is shocking that health workers can call social services to bully someone for daring to say, hang on, I have SPD! An attempt to terrify you into not complaining and not going to a lawyer, I bet.

[Icedink]

If you haven't seen it already I highly recommend the freedom for birth film - it is such an eye opener!