To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

OK, I actually feel quite ill reading this thread. Is it possible that the doctor didn't actually need to do an internal to realise I needed theatre? I'd been in pushing almost 2 hours at the time.. could I have done without the internal?

Lalaleni - Have you read all of the OP's posts? If the OP was sincere, or had any decency, she would have apologized, she didn't, she played the offended party after she hurt women and then mocked women's pained responses.

It is vicious to ask a victim to defend why they didn't prevent their attack. And how bloody dare you blame victims of medical assaults for the assaults of other. LACK OF EDUCATION IN PATIENTS DOES NOT CAUSE THESE ASSAULTS, BAD MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS WHO ASSAULT PEOPLE CAUSE THESE ASSAULTS. It is not a victim's job to educate others, we should NOT just take it on the chin and smiley sweetly when someone reopens the wound to ask us to play the part of the teacher - there are plenty of other resources and ways of doing that. Already we've discussed prevention issues on this thread with someone who said they were concerned about it - because that's how to decently ask. Words do matter, that's the whole point of words, to convey a specific meaning. We should let people know when they hurt us, whether they do with actions or with words, and I have every right to be angry and to express that anger. Stop telling victims they no right to express their anger when people disrespect and devalues and blames them for what happened to them. Being nice doesn't stop assaults, it doesn't stop disrespect, and I will not be shamed into hiding my anger and I will not be blamed for others pain when I do so.

And don't talk to me or others about this 'not being aware' stuff, many of us suffered abuse as children as well, in the streets as well, and have always known about being dominated. People not knowing and the cries of education will never excuse victim blaming. It is NOT a victim's job to educate and we should never take the devaluing of our pain (and being blamed for the pain of others) nicely.

Bogey, Emily: It was possibly a speculum, I've searched it before and have yet to find one that matched, it was one solid plastic object rather than a device that could open and close which throws me off and the cylinder ones I've seen so far haven't matched. It did seem a rather crude device, maybe they aren't used much anymore and that's why I can't one.

Thank you those of you who game me your kind comments and beverages.

Particularly Castle I had a similar experience with my third, particularly the pushing hard on the stomach bit - she was so concerned about getting the placenta out that she pushed so hard and yanked while I screamed (her colleague took the baby out of my sight to get me to cooperate better - I didn't even know she was DD2 for a good 15 minutes), ended up pulling the cord out with a chunk of placenta (and a lot of blood, I went into shock and thought I was dying), ended up rushed into theatre for a manual extraction. Theatre staff were brilliant and caring, the midwives who prepped me (who blamed me for this) not so much. Sadly had to deal with one afterwards.

Jesus, what twirlyhot said!!

I am shocked to read on this thread about the unecessary manual pulling on the cord to remove the placenta. There is no reason whatsoever to perform this crude procedure on a woman other than to speed up the birth process for the midwife. This is a further example of incompetence, poor training and lack of patience.

Ginderella my midwife pulled on the cord to try to get my placenta out. It made a weird popping noise. So I said, "oh is it supposed to do that?"
oh said,"that doesn't sound right" So midwife left to get a catheter and a more senior midwife. Senior midwife asked me to push it out and out it came.

Op are you prepared to apologise yet for your offensively phrased original post?

I hope you have listened, learned and that it doesn't happen to you. But god forbid were it too, come back because at the end of the day you will then need support and understanding and I'd still listen.

I have seen placentas coughed out and weed out! Both my VBACs I coughed, trick I've picked up from clients, my last one she was gently encouraging me to push, I looked down and said "am I weeing?" she said "yes, don't worry, it's working, keep doing it!"

Things go wrong when you mess with something don't need messing with!

There is a place for intervention but normal birth isn't it.

::files away information about coughing out the placenta for planned HWB::

LittleSporks - yes. And I stand by all I said. I couldn't see mocking I never saw blame. I read genuine questions.

I can see of course how the thread could be interpreted as all of the above by those who are living with this. But that shouldn't be projected on to the OP. I still maintain that these questions need asking.

Courgette and ginderella, can I do a brief hijack??

Interventions without consent are one of my big fears about childbirth. If there are ways to tell ow dilated one is, etc, without doing an internal, what are these, please?

It'd be amazing to know, as then you could say, "can you try x instead of an internal?"

I have very bad flashbacks to ds birth after reading this thread. Ds was my first baby and when I went into labour I was absolutely terrified and I was only young too, high on pethidine, shit scared and not in control at all. I was held down and forced to have several internals because I had been induced and I was strapped to a monitor. I remember the midwife groaning and saying jesus my fingers as my internal bits had contracted and crushed her fingers. I was in agony and screaming, it was awful.

I think I was assualted as I didn't actually consent to these internals and I was in no position to say no.

Ive had four children now and I've had internals since which have been better for me but nothing prepared me for what I went through 14 years ago.

Its not always a case of 'just close your legs'is it

revolting, they should be able to use their powers of observation, experience and trust in the birth process. Watching mums behaviour, listening to her talk or vocalise should tell her a lot. If she is up to date, she should know she can watch the linea nigra because it spreads the other way during labour or she can feel mums calves as the blood drains from them in labour, half way up the calf is about 5cm and so on.

If you want your birth plan to say no VEs, you are with in your right to do so. I delivered without them because of my gestation they didn't want to create any complications. You could say no VEs without discussing with you why first and if they can't discuss it you're obviously too far along to need it. Arm your birth partner/s with the knowledge you do not wish one unless in an emergency and tell them to say "she said no, she does not consent to that!" loudly should anyone try to go against your wishes.

in case it's not obvious the calves get colder as labour progresses.

So (and be kind as I am being induced tomorrow with number 1)...

1. how does a VE during birth compare to say a smear or a procedure such as hsg or embryo transfer? I mean in terms of what you feel
2. as I understand it, might there not be a genuine need to know how far along you are (eg is the induction working, is it the most appropriate time to site an epidural/give a dose of pethidine)

Obviously no one should shove a hand of instrument in you without consent, but i am confused about how necessary the VE genuinely is and, by association, how often it should be done.

lozster During labour I didn't mind VEs much at all - and because it was "for baby's benefit" rather than for mine iyswim it was just another part of the weirdness of the whole experience.

By contrast I've never managed a smear except under general.

I did close my legs during a particularly painful internal, but as her hand was inside me, it just clamped her hand. Even when I said 'stop' so I could relax and she could continue, she didn't. She just kept going. I said I thought I was gong to be sick. And was. Tried to avoid being sick on her. Wish I hadn't! Think there is still something that says we shouldn't kick midwives!

Homebirths, by the way, they rarely do internals. Think the only reason hospitals get excited about these things is to check you are progressing according to their charts and to predict bed availability.

A registrar assaulted me when I was pregnant with ds1.

I consented to an internal examination, but then he started to cause immense pain and I had to beg him to stop. The hca next to him told me that he was doing a membrane sweep (the doctor didn't speak much English).

This procedure wasn't explained to me and I certainly didn't consent to it! I was crying and shaking with pain, but he just carried on anyway.

My membranes broke prematurely (due to the membrane sweep) and I ended up with an emergency c section and ds1 had strep b and had to go to special care.

Yes, I was fucking assaulted

Jesus, hiddenhome. That's fucking appalling. Did you complain? I hope so!

courgette thanks. That's really interesting! I want a homebirth myself--ttc at the moment, still. I am mostly worried about forced episiotomy.

I have only ever had one gynae procedure done against my will; I was having a smear test and she decided to swab for chlamydia/ gonorrhea/ something as she had decided I was in a high risk group. It was clean, of course. I asked her to stop but she did the whole 'nearly done' thing.

It does just make you feel so degraded, even if in that case it didn't hurt. And it definitely means I will never, ever, ever access gynae services at my local hospital again for fear of running into that awful woman.

I can't imagine 'just closing my legs' but I have decided, following the swab experience, that if someone does something to me against consent, I will say rudely firmly 'No, stop that. I want you to stop that now' and then if they don't listen, 'I said stop. It is assault if you touch me without my consent.'

Fuck knows if I actually would though. Easy to all assertive behind a keyboard.

Has anyone done anything like, and did it work?

Mostly, I'm just still queasy at the idea that when going into labour, we even have to think about this. I'd love to be able to sit back and presume the professionals were just doing their best, but sadly, after this thread and many others, and my own experiences, I think I will go into labour feeling armed against people trying to push me around and hurt me :(

Yes, I spoke to a midwife at the hospital when ds1 was a few weeks old. She indicated that they'd had problems with that particular registrar before and did I want to make an official complaint. I said "no", but said that he urgently needed some re-education. I didn't have the energy to make an official complaint.

I felt as though I was just a piece of meat. I was only 1cm dilated at my 40 week pre-natal check, so he just went ahead and fucked up my sac with his rough handling. I felt like a farmyard cow. I only consented to a quick dilation check.

You can't treat pregnant women like that

Appalled to hear the other experiences on this thread. I don't know who they think they are doing this to people

This thread is horrifying. Why do some HCPs think its ok to treat women like this? Near the start of my labour a midwife gave me an internal with no lubricant on her gloves, it was so sore I was crawling up the bed on my elbows to get away and she just kept her hand up my vagina. I didn't say no but it was obvious I didn't want it done.
If no one minds I think I might let someone at the NMC (the governing body for nurses and midwives) know about this tread, there's clearly a need for improvement in the attitude some health care professionals towards what are a very vulnerable group of patients.

horry and getting strong. Good to know.