To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

[Yonionekanobe]

HopALong, that's an excellent point about being active in the process, not having it done to you. There is the element of having control that way, which I imagine eases the process a little.

I've just remembered having 'just relax!!' barked at me too.

[HotCrossPun]

(NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!)

Funny how you should feel the need to point out that this isn't about any other poster in AIBU. It's not actually common place for these types of threads to be posted here.

Unless you have started a thread about another posters assault that she started an AIBU about yesterday...

[soapboxqueen]

She didn't say she didn't understand the trauma. she said she didn't understand why you wouldn't just get up and stop them. People have shared their experiences so that the OP now understands that it is not as easy as it sounds.

If we only ever asked questions to which we already knew the answers to, the sum of human knowledge would be very small indeed.

[flippinada]

What a nasty thread.

I've never been traumatised by an internal examination but I can immediately see how this post would be upsetting and triggering for someone who has.

No-one on here (well no-one worth talking or paying attention to) would start a thread asking a victim of assault why they didn't do x,y and z, so why is this ok?

Shameful.

[Fakebook]

Yonionekanobi, that's a really good question. Through my experience, the only time an internal was needed the second time was when I was dilated enough (about 5cm) but not progressing, and the midwife (with permission) broke my waters without any pain or discomfort. The first time my waters were broken when I wasn't even dilated!

After birth I consented to an internal to check how bad my tear was, again she did it quickly and with minimal pain. Final time was after I'd been stitched up, she told me she was putting lube on her finger and putting it up my anus to check she hadn't stitched too far up. I was anaesthetised so didn't feel much, but she still asked and took steps to minimise pain.

I believe stretch and sweeps and insertion of gels at the cervix are a complete waste of time and cause needless pain as they are conducted when the woman is not even a tiny bit dilated. It's painful and every woman should know that they can refuse them.

With my first labour, I still get horrible flashbacks of my ordeal from before induction to post birth. The worse part was when they stuck their hands up my vagina to put a hook like clip on Dd's head to measure her heart rate because the pathetic belt they'd tied around my belly kept moving out of place. Not only was I hurt by that, but so was my baby.

I'm sure there are other more important reasons for an internal, when labour isn't progressing or trying to ascertain if baby is breech during labour. Things like episiotomies for ventouse need internals too.

[HotCrossPun]

Soapbox The very fact that she made a flippant comment asking when the woman 'didn't just close their legs' shows that she doesn't understand the trauma behind an assault during pregnancy.

She hasn't asked a question, she has given her own offensive and upsetting opinion. She has argued with posters who have tried to explain to her what has happened to them.

Go on girls (feel free, get angry about the gender assumption/diminutive terminology) enjoy yourselves!

I've not seen such an inflammatory thread in a long time.

[soapboxqueen]

But that's the point she didn't understand. She asked and now she knows. If she hasn't experienced something and genuinely doesn't understand, she can't know that some people are going to be very upset by the wording of the question or the question by itself until she asks it.

Yes some of the OPs responses where a bit defensive but many people would act that way if they felt they had asked a genuine question to be met with a lot of anger and in some cases name calling.

I agree with others that after it became apparent that this question had caused some distress, an apology was in order.

[Tweasels]

I think this is a nasty thread. Not having gone through childbirth is absolutely no excuse for ignorance on this scale.

She is talking about a specific thread and no one with an ounce of intelligence would read that thread and think why didn't she "kick the HCP"

[Orianne]

I've not read the whole thread so apologies if I'm making no sense but its talking about situations like this that take away some of the guilt I still feel about the birth of my daughter. Without making it all about me I was in the middle of a difficult labour in a foreign country with a 'not very understanding' midwife and a husband who was being an unsupportive twat because he didn't really know what was going on. And at one point I screamed at the midwife ' get off me, if you want to examine me, ask me I'm not a fucking animal'. And that's how she made me feel. DH was very embarrassed and told ME to behave and I've always had a 'I was being a big baby and should have just got on with it'. I wasn't being a baby my DD was stuck and the midwife had given me no pain relief because she 'chose' not too. Consultant was horrified and I was rushed for an emergency csection. Thanks to Mumsnet I realize I'm allowed to be upset about it and moreover I was right and the midwife was wrong and you too DH. So I can move on and hold no guilt. Sorry for length of post

[Orianne]

So OP my point really is I would have refused so many things if I'd known. I didn't but its not always as easy as saying no to these things when you're dealing with experts in the field.

[Cheeseatmidnight]

I consented to one then started to scream and begged them to stop as I was having a contraction on my back which I couldn't cope with. They carried on and left me on my back and I begged them to do them while I was standing.

If I have another baby I am insisting on standing internals

[enormouse]

Before having DS, I hadn't even had a smear (I was 22) so I didn't really understand how internals would work, how far they would go in or whether I would be able to say no. I would have trusted medical professionals to do whatever they thought was best.

At a week after my due date I was examined (not internally) and was told by the consultant that a sweep wouldn't be favourable.
I ended up going 11 days over and was offered a sweep. It felt so painful that I said ' no, stop!' Loudly and burst into tears after. The lovely registrar stopped immediately and informed me that if I was unhappy at any stage I had the right to say no, that no one would examine me and put it clearly on my notes.

That experience gave me confidence to only consent to 2 internals to check dilation and to get an episiotomy when I felt ready. My DP had to give consent for me though, I was too scared and in pain to make sense or feel like I'd be acknowledged. So op, does that answer your question? It is hard to get your wishes accross during labour and I was very very lucky to have a determined DP and wonderful, sensitive obstetric hcps looking after me. I feel so and for the ladies that had such traumatizing experiences.

for my next birth I will make sure I have no non essential internals and get stronger pain relief should I need an episiotomy

[Bunnygotwhacked]

See even after three births I didn't realise you could completely refuse internals until recently. Luckily I havent had it too bad noone likes them but some experiences are much worse than others.
With my first I knew nothing I didn't even know that there were going to be internals which came as a bit of a shock but noone really goes into what happens in labour and afterwards and certainly in my position I just had the vaguest idea I knew it would hurt i knew there would be drugs available i knew i would have to push and i knew there was a jab i could have to get the afterbirth out quicker. That was about the limit of my labour knowledge. So when i was told that I needed to be examined I didn't know there was ever an option and when i was stitched up after the birth I didn't know that anesthetic was an option it was presented as Oh we just need to pop a stitch in there maybe another one oh and just one more. I felt everything even though i was on gas and air but there was noone to tell me any different.
So why would i of kicked the midwife who was just doing what she was supposed to as far as i knew? All through the pregnancy you are asked if you have any questions but if you don't know what to ask it doesn't help any.
I am due my fourth now the labour will be in a hospital with a mw team i have no experience am currently cacking it hoping i will have the strength to say no when they tell me they need to "take a little look"

[LaLaLeni]

If you don't ask, you don't get - this applies to information above all else.

Maybe if op hadn't referenced the other threads, people with experience of assault etc wouldn't have read the thread and she wouldn't have got any answers. It would've sounded purely like she was asking what medically happens during an internal, and people would've probably just told her to say no to anything she felt unhappy with - which as this thread proves - isn't always enough.

When you've been through that experience, any mention of it, or hint that someone maybe doesn't understand how it can happen, can be triggering. That doesn't mean we should all stop asking - it's better that more women know about it surely?

What we're able to do as victims is enlighten others, educate, and remember we were once unaware of how these things happen too. We learned the worst way, but by telling op our stories we can help prevent her going through the same. The more we see questions (however worded) as a threat, the more we allow assaults to carry on under the radar.

[courgetteDOTcom]

I'm coming back later when I have a laptop to respond properly.

I just wanted to answer the question about the point of internals. They show a lack of skill. There are many hands-off ways to tell how dilated a woman is, regular VEs aren't necessary. I had two in the week I was in last time because of my gestation (29) one at arrival to make sure I was dilating and one 5 days later when I had started to bleed to make sure this was it and nothing sinister, as they didn't want to risk bringing him out quicker. I was impressed at the skill they showed in managing a week without VEs.

[flippinada]

Well there's nothing wrong with talking about it at all but fling do in a shaming, victim blaming way is entirely inappropriate.

Replace the words "unwanted internal exam" with "sexual assault" and you can understand why people have had a strong reaction to the post.

Plus the spiteful comment referenced below...

[flippinada]

"doing so"

[edam]

OP, there are polite respectful ways to ask for information. And then there's what you have done. Extremely rude, dismissive and upsetting for people who are distressed.

If you don't know something, it's OK to ask, but think about how you phrase your question, for heaven's sake.

[lougle]

There is a massive power imbalance in the relationship between the Professionals and the woman. Huge. It can't be underestimated. The Professionals are gatekeepers to information, medication and resources.

If a Professional recommends a course of action and the patient declines, the consequences will stay with them forever. It's impossible to make a rational decision about that unless you are informed of the risks and benefits. However, the person who wants you to take the decision they consider to be essential is presenting that information, so it's inherently loaded.

As an off-topic example, I had a routine growth scan at 33 weeks, baby was 4lb 9oz. Two weeks later I had a follow-up growth scan. The baby was 4lb 9oz. I said 'no, that's what he/she was a fortnight ago...'. They realised she hadn't grown at all in that two weeks.

When the Registrar met me, she was quite keen for me to be monitored and for the pregnancy to continue. She couldn't tell me why baby had stopped growing, whether she would grow from then on in, etc. I said 'I want her out.' For me, the risk of the unknown was far greater than the risk of giving birth at 35+3 weeks. The Reg didn't agree, so she went and got her Consultant, who said that either option was 'valid'. So I asked to be induced.

I had the luxury of calm discussion, no pain, etc., - the power balance was, relatively, in my favour. Had that been an emergency/acute situation, I would have had to just go with the flow.

[gordyslovesheep]

wow OP really??? Wow - I guess women who are raped have the same option - just close your legs silly women

what a vile thread

[Funghoul]

I gave birth in stirrups that I couldn't get my legs into or out of by myself. After I gave birth I felt so wobbly and shaky that it took a good hour until I could stand with support.
My consent was given for everything and I was happy with my midwives and care, but no way could I have physically stopped anything.

[yamsareyammy]

Wow at this thread.
Never knew there was such a big problem with this.

Did the posters on here, report either the medical person, or the hospital?

Maybe there are certain hospitals that this is happening in, rountinely?

Not sure of the motives of the op. May be fine, maybe not.
But I think this is talking about a subject that needs talking about imo.

[Ginderella]

A labouring women cannot benefit from an internal exam. There are used as a diagnostic tool for incompetent and poorly trained doctors and midwives. A woman does not need an internal exam from the start of a pregnancy until the end. A well trained midwife worth her salt will know exactly how a birth is progressing just by observation.

Checking to see how far a woman is dilated before offering pain relief is cruel and inhuman. Stitches without pain relief is barbaric. Not waiting for the placenta to come way naturally - rushing a woman to theatre to manually evacuate the placenta - is all done to save the midwife time.

As for saying no to internal exams - how many times have we seen on TV shows such as OBEM the midwife saying to the woman "I'm just going to give you a little check" and she has her arm shoved up as far as it can go before there is any chance of informed consent.

Once you are in hospital you are at their mercy unless you have a strong advocate with you. It's never about your birth experience. It's all about getting that baby out of you as quickly as possible so that they can move onto the next victim.

[breatheslowly]

I was induced with a pessary, 3 x gel, then the works. While I contented to umpteen "I'll just see if you are dilated" VEs, they regularly were really painful and the MW would say "I've just done a sweep while I was in there". I never consented to sweeps and quite frankly if a sweep was going to do something then it would have done by then. I think that there is a significant issue of "full" consent rather than brief, minimising consent.

[MurderOfGoths]

I had my legs in stirrups + SPD, could not move at all. It was awful.

In my case it was useful, because they found DS was stuck and I needed to go to theatre, but it was terrifying and painful. Worst moment in a frankly terrifying pregnancy and birth.

It haunts me now, but this is the first time I've ever mentioned it to anyone.