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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To not understand the assault/internals threads?

463 replies

GingerJulep · 21/07/2013 00:04

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

OP posts:
Orianne · 25/07/2013 21:03

It makes me want to be in the delivery room when my DD's deliver. obviously it's their choice . I won't let the same thing happen to them as happened to me.

Itchywoolyjumper · 25/07/2013 21:09

I've had a chat with the NMC and have an email address to send the link to this thread to. Would it be ok with all of you if I did that?

RedToothBrush · 25/07/2013 21:12

Itchy, its a public forum.

Its obviously an issue that women feel compelled enough to speak publicly though anonymously about.

What harm does it do to get them to read the thread?

Awareness is the key.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 25/07/2013 21:19

Just as a side issue - if NCT classes are presenting analgesia as a bad thing, this is not what I think they are supposed to do, and I would advise people to complain.

When I went to NCT classes when pregnant with ds1, and when I was a NCT class supporter and chair of my local branch, the classes our teachers taught gave information about the pros and cons of all the different forms of pain relief, with no sense of judgement about whether a particular form of analgesia was good or bad. The aim was to give the class members good quality, unbiased information, so that they could make informed decisions when making out a birth plan and in labour.

If NCT classes are no longer doing this, they should change.

Itchywoolyjumper · 25/07/2013 21:28

I just wanted to check. This whole thread has been about women finding themselves in situations where they are being disempowered and I didn't want to add to that.
As far as the NMC goes they've told me they can't investigate any case presented on an anonymous internet forum. However I can send this to their education department who might be able to do something in terms of helping to change attitudes.

blueballoon79 · 25/07/2013 21:33

When I went into hospital with my second child to be induced (I was 43 weeks pregnant) I'd written in my notes about being sexually abused previously and that I had great difficulty with vaginal examinations.

I can't go into great detail because just reading this thread has made me feel sick, distressed and angry but basically I was held down by the legs and stomach whilst they forced their hands inside me and broke my waters without my consent. I actually did scream and kick out at them but I was held down.

Later on I'd had an epidural and by that point was in absolute shock and was terrorised at the repeated forced examinations and brutal treatment.
My baby was not being delivered no matter how hard I pushed. They put my legs into stirrups against my wishes but I couldn't do a thing as I was paralyzed from the waist down after the epidural, then a doctor stuck her entire hand inside me and I was screaming and crying and begging them to stop.

People were walking in and out of the room and I didn't know who they were or why they were there and she kept her hand inside me the entire time.

That birth was far, far more scary and frightening and I felt far more out of control than I did with the sexual abuse I received as a child.

I agree I found the op insensitive, patronising and very much victim blaming. I'm horrified by this thread. I'm also so, so sorry for all the other women who have come on and said they experienced similar traumatic situations.

I actually wanted to kill myself for the first year after my daughters birth because I couldn't cope with the persistent flashbacks and nightmares and the terrible way I felt about myself. I felt dirty and disgusting and pathetic.

No op, I couldn't fight them off.

courgetteDOTcom · 25/07/2013 21:38

I have two thoughts here, firstly that if they want stories to put their email here. Secondly that as with Bounty I don't think anecdotes are the right way forward, it's a colossal change in mindset that they need to get involved in.

Leverette · 25/07/2013 21:46

This reply has been deleted

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ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 25/07/2013 21:49

I don't want to minimise what has happened to some of the women on this thread, because their experiences are truly terrifying and awful. But there are good HCPs out there, and I don't like the way all of them are being tarred with the same brush. Maybe they are in a minority, I don't know, but they are there and there is good practice happening that I think we should be promoting alongside exposing the bad side.

RedToothBrush · 25/07/2013 21:51

The other thing is, from the first Bounty thread I saw that started to be taken seriously by MNHQ it took about a year to get a campaign going. The second Bounty thread appeared some time after that.

In that time, it took a lot of women to speak up, to provide the groundswell of anecdotes to then go on to the net steps. So I do think that anecdotes have a purpose here. Its essentially part of a process of women starting to step up and say "This is not acceptable".

I think a similar thing needs to happen here. And it will be harder given the nature of the issue being so intimate and so distressing, in a way that is far worse in the vast majority of (though not necessarily all) cases.

Every person that shares their experience is a real person who probably is representative of hundreds more. So speak up! Be heard!

Itchywoolyjumper · 25/07/2013 22:06

I am a nurse. I always encourage patients to make complaints if they have grievance with the way they've been treated. With my professional hat on I can see complaints are an amazing way of improving practice, both individual and organisational. They support the staff who do care and mean that no one else should go through what you did.
I know this but I can't bring myself to make a formal complaint about my treatment in labour. I felt so inhuman, I felt like cow in the hands of the vet and I don't think I could relive it by making a complaint.

SwedishHouseMat · 25/07/2013 22:21

I like to think of myself as a feminist and that women are all "sisters" under the skin.

What I still can't get over, is how cruel and heartless the female HCPs - midwives and doctors were. I'm not saying that the male registrar wasn't cruel - he was - but somehow I expected the women to have some sort of empathy and help me during a frightening and vulnerable time.

I still remember the cold stare and the look of utter contempt that one midwife gave me. No smiles, no comforting words. I was afraid to speak to her and draw attention to myself. She cursed me for moaning. Told me to shut up and get on with pushing.

Why are women so cruel to other women?

garlicagain · 25/07/2013 23:20

I think some people are cruel, Swedish. Malice is equal-opportunity :(

bloodybutunbowed · 25/07/2013 23:23

HopALongOn you're right that there are some good HCPs out there, but the sad fact is that most midwives don't seem to be "with woman" at all, but seem to be complicit in the machinery of hospital practice and the conveyor belt of birth and maternity services. It must be very difficult for sensitive caring HCPs to fight an individual's corner in the face of protocols and procedures, I sympathise with that - but the mentality that a great deal of HCPs - in my experience - adopt is terrifying.

I have a lot of children. I have looked countless midwives/supervisors of midwives/consultants etc in the eye and told them I am a gang rape survivor who has PTSD - words that are very very hard for me to voice. I have even taken the trouble to write down why I cannot accept internals under any circumstances, why forceps and speculum take me back to being violently assaulted with a vodka bottle, why staring at me takes me back to being watched while being raped. This has not stopped HCPs from holding me down and forcibly examining me, or abusing me in any number of ways. I have had flashbacks in front of these people, my dh has physically had to protect me on occasion. I am up front, I write very basic and easily read birth plans that clearly state my position, so why do HCPs, despite often being generally sympathetic and reasonable people, consider themselves the exception - the person who can talk "sense" into me and persuade me that I'm just overreacting to a normal procedure that women accept every day. HCPs do not understand. They have no concept of the enormity of the trauma some of us have been through. If you work in maternity services, surely you should be prepared for the fact that you will come into contact with women who have been raped and abused, and that birth will be particularly challenging for these individuals. But for some reason the huge machinery of the hospital process is paramount, sympathy and empathy go out of the window and the prevailing culture is to bully the pregnant woman into submission regardless of what it might do to her mental health. Even the gentlest of HCPs is one small cog in a vast and uncaring machine. Even the best HCPs still don't fully understand and are too hidebound by procedure to truly make a difference.

RubyThePirate · 25/07/2013 23:33

Does anybody know what happens when it's your word against theirs?

If I'd complained about the midwife performing a sweep when I'd only consented to a VE, how could I prove it? Surely she could just say I wasn't telling the truth, or was confused. This is one reason I didn't make a complaint; there were others but I couldn't face making an issue out of it, knowing how easily it could be dismissed. And that made me feel disempowered all over again.

I've read the whole thread and am horrified at how appallingly women have been treated.

I don't understand why so many HCPs seem contemptuous of the patients in their care.

HorryIsUpduffed · 25/07/2013 23:34

Ruby a lot of "normal" sexual assault cases come down to one person's word against another's, too Sad Angry

RubyThePirate · 25/07/2013 23:37

bloody, all I can say is that I truly wish you all the peace and happiness in the world with your many beautiful children Flowers

RubyThePirate · 25/07/2013 23:42

Horry, yes, the nature of the crime is that that will be so, but I have to confess to ignorance of how such cases are brought, or proved.

courgetteDOTcom · 26/07/2013 00:00

I didn't mean that they don't have a place. Look at what's happening with the response to Bounty, people are saying "but what about my Bounty lady? She was lovely" and it's not really about how nice they are or not, it's about the fact they're there - it's a red herring from both sides. Anecdotes are useful to backup that things aren't right, but they can't be the whole picture. I hope that makes sense.

Mumsnet weren't the only ones getting involved in Bounty, there was the BMJ article and other people getting on board, lots of things happening at the same time that kicked it off. I think that's what this needs, others getting involved, maybe someone writing for the BMJ, I don't know!

Ruby they denied everything I said, didn't remember anything and referred to their notes. I have photographic evidence of things they deny but that was as far as the SoM could get. Another sexual assault parallel.

courgetteDOTcom · 26/07/2013 02:50

just found this in my inbox.

Thomas K Birth trauma: a guide for you, your friends and family to coping with post-traumatic stress disorder following birth. Lancashire: Nell James; 2013.

Birth ought to be a joyful experience: for some women, however, it is anything but. Women who have experienced a medical emergency during birth often find that the memory of it doesn't go away just because a healthy baby has been delivered. They experience the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder: flashbacks, sleeplessness, nightmares or extreme anxiety. Some go out of their way to avoid being reminded of the birth, and they may find it difficult to bond with their baby. Post-traumatic stress disorder after birth, known more simply as 'birth trauma', affects at least 10,000 women every year in England and Wales. Yet the condition is poorly misunderstood and women suffering from birth trauma often do not receive the treatment or support they need. They may be misdiagnosed as suffering from postnatal depression, and many find that friends and family, instead of being supportive, simply tell them to pull themselves together. This valuable and fascinating book explains everything you and your family and friends need to know about birth trauma: what causes it, how it affects your personal relationships, how to treat it and where to find support. Using the powerful personal stories of women who have suffered birth trauma and overcome it, this book shows that it is possible to go through this difficult experience and come out the other side.

bordellosboheme · 26/07/2013 04:01

Could a mnhq person comment on this thread please? What options do we have for taking this forward as a collective. I believe the time has come where women should no longer be treated like this is a 'civilised' society.

courgetteDOTcom · 26/07/2013 04:07

Rowan commented not long ago.

bordellosboheme · 26/07/2013 04:57

Ok, just read Rowans thread. Just saying 'we're a bit choca' doesn't wash I don't think. Saying we're 'busy' just maintains the societal silence that perpetrates this violence against women, and this outdated medical practice. God, this thread is making me angry Angry thinking of how human beings have been treated.

mathanxiety · 26/07/2013 05:17

Some women in hospital uniforms think that giving birth is a sort of initiation rite that has to be as brutal as possible. The infliction of cruelties both small and large is their role in the process of making a mother out of you.

For 'mother' read 'woman who has been taken down a peg'. I think it comes from a belief that women should not feel great about what they have just accomplished, or expect any allowances or 'special treatment' from anyone because that would take centre stage away from those to whom they think centre stage belongs. For 'special treatment' read kindness and respect.

I found in my own medical experience that nurses in post op (gallbladder surgery) were far kinder to me than nurses in maternity. Kinder and more respectful.

RedToothBrush · 26/07/2013 06:36

bordellosboheme, read what I said about a campaign too. If you want one, then there needs to be process to go through to get to a point where it would have benefit.

It is no good just saying 'we want a campaign'. Start thinking about how you go about it, and what you need to focus on and who you need to target for it to be successful.

MN as a organisation have the power to get things into the public eye and the media in two ways; first by direct contact with us and secondly by going to those with power. Direct contact with us, can initially just mean providing a platform for discussion just by having threads like this. They don't need to get fully involved just yet imho.

Campaigns are only successful if you work out a way of getting the message across to both in a clear, concise way. It has to really get under the skin of these organisations to make any impact what so ever. You need to find a way to MAKE them listen, as this is so institutionalised and ingrained into thinking that a) this doesn't happen b) we can easily ignore this and its just a few isolated cases and they should have reported it to their hospital. This is institutionalised, which is the very thing which makes it just so hard to fight. It can be done but it is difficult.

The campaign really starts by people on this forum working now; so that MNHQ can later pick up the baton and really look at it and make a difference. They DON'T have to do the ground work. Its people like you and me who can do that. Anyone on this forum can do this.

Like I said before, its about creating a groundswell that goes beyond MN too. Whilst MN have influence that still is regarded as being representative of a certain section of the public (which isn't true but perception is everything). If you can get wider involvement it will work. I'm sure that organisations like the Birth Trauma Association would be interested. Then you need to think about how you can play up to the media and talk about how tackling this issue is financially beneficial (because unfortunately you can not avoid that topic when it comes to the NHS and frankly lack of resources is the usual red herring totally unacceptable excuse).

Right now, I think getting women to simply talk about this issue in an open way, is the point we are at and where we need to go from. Recognise the fact that this is far more widespread than we would like to believe, recognise the fact that women whilst competent are vulnerable and need to be both respected and protected, challenge the idea that HCP always have your best interests at heart. Get people to ask questions and give them the confidence to challenge certain phrases (before the examinations even start) or to start making complaints if they have the misfortune to be abused in this way. Basically define the problem, define its extent, define what your rights are, support each other.

Like I say, much of this is about language and communication; or lack of it. We need to change a culture that says "I'm just going to" to "Do you mind if I". Thats bloody hard.