To not understand the assault/internals threads?

[GingerJulep]

I've never had one so am really struggling to understand how so many women on here (NOT aimed specifically at the other poster on this page, there are lots in different sections!) manage to have internal examinations before/during/after birth that they say they didn't consent to/asked to be stopped?

I mean that physically, don't they have the option to just shut legs/take feet out of stirrups/kick HCP in face?

Nearest I've ever come (so far, lucky me!) was someone trying to take blood suddenly... I made an automatic physical reaction (big flinch/jump) and they simply couldn't do it until we'd had a quick cat.

So, how much more difficult is it to avoid/stop internal exams if you really want to IYSWIM?

I haven't had time to read all of the thread yet, I will do, but I'm off to work in a bit. I just wanted to add my voice to the masses. During labour with my first DD, breaking my waters had been discussed early on, and I said I would consider it if asked. I should also point out, I had rather painful SPD and had limited mobilty because of it (well known to all my HCPs). I was NOT asked about breaking my waters, just asked to consent to another internal, which I did. The doctor who my broke my waters didn't warn me what she was doing, or ask if it was ok. I said it hurt, asked her to stop, and was told to just use more gas and air. When I flinched she caught the damn hook in my cervix, and my midwife physically restrained me so they could get it back out as I was thrashing about in pain. I wasn't alone, my DH was there too, but as first time parents we had no experience of what was normal and were both too shocked to do anything decisive at the time.

I'm pregnant again and I've added to my birth plan that if anyone comes near me with one of those hooks again, I will probably kick them in the face. I have made it very clear that I do NOT give permission to break my waters. I find it very saddening that at our most vulnerable, some of us are going to be worrying about things like this as well.

While reading this thread has been harrowing, I'd like to thank you all. After 3 years of knowing I should make a complaint and not being able to knowing that many others have felt the same and worse has empowered me to finally make the complaint, which I sent off this morning.

If I had a friend or acquaintance who asked me not to put my arm round them because it reminded them of being attacked, I would bloody well not put my arm around them!! And as a nurse, I find it absolutely appalling that there are nurses and other HCPs who can read in someone's notes, or hear directly from them, 'I was raped/assaulted/I have PTSD/I have SPD, so internals/stirrups/etc are physical/mental/emotional agony' - and can then go right ahead and assault the woman again.

This does not just deserve professional censure, it deserves criminal action.

I am very lucky that this has not happened to me, but I would be keen to be part of a campaign in any way that I can help.

Such dreadful experiences. I'm on my phone so apologies for any mistakes or lack of paragraphs etc, I've never posted using my phone and am usually just a lurker.

With both my DC, all my MWs and other HCPs were truly wonderful, really kind and caring. However, with DS1, I wasn't making much progress and to cut a long story short (due to being on my phone and finding it a bit tricky), the consultant said he would break my waters.

Can't remember if he asked, or told me. But I was ok with it. However, I can only describe the procedure as being like having a drain unclogged at great speed. It was awful and I had flashbacks for a few days after where I would wake up bolt upright, feeling it all over again.

My DH even said it seemed very very rough and he was taken aback. It happened so fast and I was so shocked, I couldn't speak. He attached clips to my baby's head and did 3 blood tests. That was fine, bit traumatic but I wasn't expecting it to be a picnic in the park!

I ended up with an em c/s. the consultant came in to me after to say that ds had been back to back, that's why my labour had been so painful and I hadn't really got anywhere. He was very pleasant and I have no reason to believe he was deliberately being rough.

I had ds2 by elective c/s due to severe SPD. I had originally said I would try normally, but as things progressed, it just wasn't an option for me. I can honestly say ds2's birth was a wonderful experience (lovely drugs haha) in all respects.

Everyone involved from the mw's to the ward cleaners and those who brought the food, were absolutely fantastic. I don't in any way want to sound as if I'm gloating or anything. I had a horrible experience myself but now I feel like writing to my maternity ward/ HCPs concerned , to thank them for such great care, having read the dreadful experiences here.

My heart goes out to each one of you, I totally believe all the stories but they are so unbelievable IYKWIM. If any of those HCPs involved are reading this thread, then I hope they are hanging their heads in shame.

I still remember the "drain unblocking". Un-mumsnetty- hugs to all of you. (I hope I haven't offended or upset anyone by posting about my mostly positive experiences , perfect in fact apart from that. I just wanted to add my experience whilst also saying I have been so lucky to have had 2 births helped by lovely people. Ds1 is 6 now and I still remember it very clearly. And like a lot you, I'm annoyed with myself that I never said anything at the time or after.)

I have some ideas I want to add later but I need to go and get my friend from the train. In the meantime, anyone want to pass this link to AIMS?

I find it absolutely appalling that there are nurses and other HCPs who can read in someone's notes, or hear directly from them, 'I was raped/assaulted/I have PTSD/I have SPD, so internals/stirrups/etc are physical/mental/emotional agony' - and can then go right ahead and assault the woman again. This does not just deserve professional censure, it deserves criminal action.

Yes, it does. It's not negligence or incompetence; it's cruelty. I wonder whether individuals are legally accountable for their actions while at work in a clinical setting? Are they immune, as state-sanctioned torturers have been in various other environments, or are they suffering a delusion that should be challenged?

Cubbie, I'm pleased for your good experiences in labour but thought it a bit odd that you felt a need to stress the point. I was raped by one taxi driver, and helped by hundreds of others. The good guys don't make the bad one any less bad (rather the opposite, really.)

Garlic, we are legally accountable for our actions and nurses and other HCP can and have been jailed for their actions at work.
Judging from this thread there are a lot more who should be.

Thank you, Itchy. I don't know you, but am terribly proud of you for making your complaint.

Garlic, I'm welling up a bit. I wasn't prepared for how emotional I felt while writing out the report of what happened and I've been feeling a bit wrung out since, your comment has made me feel quite a bit better.

You should be proud of yourself Itchy. I don't know how it will turn out or whether it will be dealt with the sensitivity and respect you deserve.

However, you are now recorded - the hospital have to log the complaint. And whether or not you end up with the result you deserve, that hospital can not now say they've never had anyone complain about it.

Its an assault of a sexual nature; and the reporting of other crimes of a similar nature like rape or abuse as a child are highly unreported and thats one of the things that makes them most difficult to tackle. It takes people like you to change that.

I hope that you give others the courage to follow suit.

To be honest I was much more angry about their whole attitude to me and that was what I concentrated on in my complaint, I didn't really want to dwell on the internal. I'm not any kind of role model. I looked at my c-scars this morning and it put me in a rage and the rage pushed me the last bit to complain. The first cut they put in was too high and so they had to go in again a bit lower, leaving me with a 2cm cut above my c-section which has scarred. No one told me that they had made this mistake and I only found out when I changed my dressing when I went home. They had so little respect for me that they treated scarring me as an incidental, like drawing the wrong line on a piece of paper.

There are some truly awful experiences on this thread. It is heartbreaking and makes me very angry.

A couple of things, in no particular order -

A recurring theme seems to be that women are givng consent, or at least not objecting, to procedures and examinations when they don't actually know what they are consenting to. I don't mean just the issue of sweeps being performed without the mother's knowledge, although that is awful. I mean how much of an arm/what instruments go up a vagina. Something like 'putting a clip on a baby's head' don't really convey much about what is going to be done and it seems to come as a real shock to some women going through that procedure. Likewise manual removal of placenta. Do HCP's assume all women arrive at hospital pre-briefed? or do they not care?

While this thread (after the OP, at any rate...) has been almost all very understanding and receptive to traumatised posters... there have been MANY threads on Childbirth where women are repeatedly told by other women to 'leave their dignity at the door', and 'you won't care what happens to you in the end' etc etc. 'You won't care if an army of students and the next door neighbour walk in at the end ha ha ha' is another theme.

That always makes me furious. And it is obviously not true. Look at this thread. Women care deeply what happens to them during labour and birth. The attitude that says you shouldn't care seems to be very close to the misogynist stance that says of course it hurts, of course it's gory and painful, and if you don't want to go through all that, keep your legs closed (that's before birth, OP). How do you combat those attitudes?

I also think there is a huge and chronic lack of understanding about how a history of sexual abuse or assault affects women. A LOT of women experience this at some point in their lives. It can have a huge impact on how any examination or treatment affects them. I think unless there is much more acknowledgement of how widespread sexual assault and unwanted contact is against women, sensitive treatment from hcps won't be made a priority.

And I'm afraid the other battle is BIRTH CHOICE. I never wanted a vaginal birth, partly because I was terrified of getting treated like some of the mothers on this women have been. I had 2 planned cs's - only one internal throughout both of them, and that was because I went into pre-term labour with my 2nd. Guess what - it was a horrible experience. A series of mws refused to believe I could be in labour, until eventually the nastiest one told me she would 'prove I wasn't? with an internal, which was deliberately rough. Turns out I was dilated, I was in labour, and I had a cs a few hours later. If I had been believed earlier, perhaps there would have been time for the 2nd steroid injection, and my ds would have been spared several weeks in a scbu as his lungs might have been stronger.

My point is that if we want to deny women the right to choose csections or homebirths, or whatever - then we are saying they have a very limited set of rights when it comes to birth. From saying 'no, you will be forced to have a vaginal birth', it really isn't much of a step to carrying on with an internal when a woman is begging for it to stop, or forcing her legs apart for a forceps birth because - well, they aren't in charge, are they? Midwife/consultant knows best, and can ignore her.

It's also the case that for a lot of mothers, once they are out of hospital and away from it all, they just don't want to relive awful experiences by complaining about it. A lot of trauma seems to resurface and have to be tackled, or not, when women have their 2nd babies, or subsequent babies.
I think without ACTIVE follow up from hospitals for women about birth experiences, not enough voices will be heard.

(not follow up like my community mw. She asked if I had any concerns about the birth - as it was premature, I said yes, voiced a couple... and was interrupted to be told briskly that 'we can all have our idea of how we want a birth to go, but sometimes we have to accept that it doesn't....' I told her if that was all she had to offer, she could go. She was shocked. I was brave in my own house - on a ward, with several mws, I just felt bullied and intimidated...)

I was thinking, maybe this is something we should do on our own as MNHQ aren't able to. If we set up a website with a forum or a guest book even people can add their experiences. We can do that as a bare minimum start them decide through the forum what we want to do. I've got experience with webs, anyone else got any ideas?

Itchy well done for making a complaint! I hope you get a good apology and feel better for having spoken up

Courgette brilliant idea, I would love to be involved and help in any way I can.

Its exciting how this thread has gathered momentum, it really feels like something huge is happening, although some of the stories on here are horrific.

I have had 5 babies, all early, some more so than others. All had the waters broken by the midwife delivering. At no point did I feel uncomfortable. They always explained what they needed to do and seeing as they were health care medics, I went with what they thought best. If they needed to examine me then I agreed, I was having a baby, I wanted him/her safely delivered. Maybe my circumstances were different, earliest was 32 weeks, latest 37.. but I never felt assaulted in any way, these people were just doing their job. When my last baby was born, by ventouse, I was bleeding all over the place, she would have died, turns out the cord was wrapped around her neck twice, the medics did what they thought best and it hurt, it hurt alot..she is now 8.

Thanks, topknob for that post that neither addresses the OP nor adds much of use to the ensuing discussion

Here's the thing: If you agreed after being informed, as you say you did, it's not assault, is it?

Well jolly good for you topknob.

courgette count me in.

I think Topknob's post is actually quite helpful. It shows that it can be done without trauma to the labouring woman. I have had experiences like that, which proved that the horrible experience I had need never have happened.

If Topknob can have 5 babies without feeling violated or abused, then why cant every woman?

YY, agreed, Bogey. Particularly as one was a violent and painful birth - with full information and involved consent, Topknob came through bloody but unbowed. It doesn't seem that much to ask.

I sort of agree, I had a really lovely midwife in the middle of my labour and it actually made my over all impression of the whole thing worse. If I'd felt that it was inevitable that I was going to be treated like a piece of meat it might have been easier to deal with rather than knowing that they could have treated me like a human but chose not to.

Courgette, isn't that essentially what the birth trauma association website does though?

If you've not seen it/read it, its Here

I have a lot of time for the work they seem to be doing. They support women's choice in childbirth and support women who have both VBs and CSs and how that has an impact on them. They are neither pro vb or pro cs.

They stress the point that a lot of CS requests are made because of previously traumatic births and they stress the point of how much money that poor attitudes and not listening to women is actually costing the NHS.

To date, I'm not sure I've seen them do anything that I had been critical of, and when it comes to this subject I'm pretty militant about the bad use of language or agendas.

They really do seem to be putting women first.

I have only a trivial experience to add, but was it really necessary to have an internal as a condition of entry to delivery suite when I couldn't make it up the corridor without three contractions? I feel the internal was a condition of entry, I needed a room and she wouldn't give me has and air until she "knew" I was in established labour. I consented-I was in pain and I labour calmly with gas and air and panic without. Dd2 was born hakf an hour later.I know it's not necessary to examine-with baby number two the midwife arrived at home took one look at me and said "I'll not be going anywhere, don't worry". You shouldn't need a home birth to be in a situation where midwives can use professional judgement rather than dogged adherence to procedure.