To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

Most people draw their 'pro-choice' line a bit sooner than full term but technically if you are supporting abortion from the pro-choice position then you should accept that it is a woman's right to chose right up to the point when she gives birth. Thankfully we live in a civilised society where people who apply those beliefs can be convicted of murder.

The bolded is the case in Canada. It is legal to have a late term abortion for non-medical reasons. Of course almost nobody does. But it is legal.

So are they uncivilised murderers?

I also don't believe that terms are necessary. Women will have abortions as soon as they possibly can, if they don't want to be pregnant. Stands to reason. This is an issue because anti abortion people want to increase the time and difficulty involved in getting an abortion and decrease the term during which a woman can have one thereby decreasing a woman's chance of having her medical needs seen to.

Because they're dishonest, disingenuous fuds, frankly. They think women are incapable of making these decisions.

The foetus has a body too. I don't think think it is civilised to grant someone the authority over another person's life/body.

Holdme, they obviously wouldn't be tried and convicted for murder there because it isn't illegal. I still don't agree with it though and I don't think the majority of people would either.

'I don't think think it is civilised to grant someone the authority over another person's life/body.'

The Irish state currently has authority over the bodies of its female citizens of child bearing age.

The foetus isn't a person. It's a foetus.

No, the child inside the woman has rights too according to their law.

When does it become a person skyler?

When it's born.

Good point Apocalypse. The overwhelming majority of women who need an abortion get it under 12 weeks. The few women who need abortions later often need them because they are very young and didn't realise they were pregnant, or because they have just escaped an abusive relationship.

Here's a source for that by the way.

Women who need abortions after 12 weeks are very young, poor, from communities without access to abortion clinics, rape and abuse victims, have just lost their jobs... it's heartbreaking.

Really skyler? So a foetus in distress at 38 weeks - life worth saving but an unwanted 38 week old foetus - not worth it? Even though it can survive outside the woman and she's going to have to give birth one way or another? She still has the right to chose to end that life? Do you really believe that or are you just trying to make a point?

In reality, the women who need it most.

Her body, her choice. It's not for me, or you, or anyone else to dictate to her what she can or can't do with her body.

'More likely' is not the same as all

It's not just her body you're talking about though.

Don't try to tell me a 38 week old foetus doesn't have body.

Well as you can see from the name I am from Northern Ireland. We have to travel to England or somewhere too. It's not right under some circumstances, however I am only 30, so not old and I am very happy that its not available here like in England or some other parts of the UK. Most women here and certainly all of my friends and family feel the same, and I would vote to make some changes like maternal risk or rape cases, but other than that, I am happy it is not like England for many reasons.
To the poster who would not visit Ireland for this reason, I want to let you know I can totally understand where you are coming from, because there are some countries I steer clear of too. England being one of them.

Anti choice activists like to focus on the theoretical case of a 38 week foetus rather than the vast majority of real cases, which involve abortions before 12 weeks and where those few after 20 weeks are overwhelmingly due to foetal abnormalities not picked up until later scans.

You're wrong again, bumbley. Even in places where abortion is not allowed, or allowed up to a certain point, you cannot be convicted of murder, because even when a foetus is given rights, it rarely, if ever, is given the status of personhood.
In UK law, murder is against " a reasonable creature in rerum natura", which means that against a person who has been born and is completely separate from the mother, ie the umbilical cord has been cut and an independent breath has been taken. Only then is it legally a person, before that it legally is not and there can be no murder.

Geographical proximity to a country that offers safe, legal abortion allows Norhern Ireland and the Republic to take a 'moral' stance without any of the usual consequences.

I think that any woman who wants an abortion at 38 weeks will have a pretty good reason. I don't think there should be an upper limit, and I agree with the self-regulating point made upthread.

Nornironmum looks like Haiti and the like will be your holiday destinations then...

Twirly, if that post was directed at me, I'm not focussing on anything. We were discussing abortion to term which is why I am talking about 38 week old foetuses.

Right skyler, because women always have a 'pretty good' reason for doing something. I'm sure the women who have killed their young babies/children had perfectly good reasons for doing so

Norniron, most people I know from NI feel the same way too.

Did it being illegal stop them from killing their children, bumbley? So what does the law matter?