To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

[apachepony]

In principle abortion to save the life of the mother, including risk of suicide, was permitted under the constitution following the Supreme Court judgement in the x case. However, successive governments failed to legislate and so the circumstances under which a termination could be carried out were unclear. I think in a different hospital with different doctors, savita's pregnancy might have been terminated earlier - but doctors would be in legally grey territory. I understand the new legislation gives more clarity though I haven't read it. It's the suicide bit that's controversial.

[squoosh]

The map that TonyDanza linked to makes pretty sobering viewing.

[skylerwhite]

apachepony I thought your post at 8.04 this morning was very honest and very moving.

[rob99]

What about the rights of the unborn child ?

[KobayashiMaru]

it shouldn't have any rob. HTH.

[ComposHat]

it isn't a child. .. it is an embryo. it doesn't have an independent existence Using emotive and misleading language doesn't help the debate

[bumbleymummy]

Kobaysha, it was available - abirtions were carried out to save the life of the mother. There were just grey areas that meant that doctors worried about whether or not they were doing something illegal.

[KobayashiMaru]

Really? Show me proof. Because I can show you proof of where they were not allowed, even though they should have been. There was no legislation, and drs do not readily put themselves in that position. Hospital ethics committees have turned down women who were dying. I can show proof of this. Can you?

[bumbleymummy]

Frequently a foetus Compos, not an embryo.

[SummerRainIsADistantMemory]

I hate that expression 'rights' when used in complex situations like abortion.

A woman has a right not to die of septicaemia.
She has the right not to be raped/abused.
She has the right to receive cancer treatment to save her life.

The loss of an otherwise viable foetus in those circumstances is regrettable but it does not have rights as such, without a living host it cannot survive. It does not have the right to end its mothers life. And in the case of rape should never have been created.

[skylerwhite]

Evidence, bumbley?

[ComposHat]

oops! lazy thinking/typing on my part!

[ComposHat]

eithet way until it cansustain life independently of the woman, it possesses no independent rights.

[SummerRainIsADistantMemory]

compos - eithet way until it cansustain life independently of the woman, it possesses no independent rights

And that's where it gets tricky. I don't think there are many who are pro choice who agree with full term abortions being freely available. Two of my children were born before 40 weeks. There were babies in scbu doing extremely well who'd been born at 28 and 32 weeks.

So where does the line get drawn?

When does the child within the womb deserve the chance to live and cease to be a bodily product of the mother?

24 weeks? when it has decent viability with assistance?
34 weeks when it can breathe independently?
20 weeks when it can feel pain? (that date is debatable, I'm just using it for illustrative purposes)

This is the aspect of the debate that causes issues in Ireland, very few people agree with the current situation where women are dying due to lack of abortion. However, if another referendum were held on the matter suggesting abortion be allowed til full term it would be voted against... I would lay money on it. So we have a situation where most people feel there should be some abortion, up to a certain point of pregnancy but no-one can agree on the details. So it never goes anywhere and we're left in the same stupid situation as before.

[KobayashiMaru]

I agree with up to term freely available, personally. I think women can self regulate and don't need laws to draw a line in the sand. I appreciate my stance is not popular, however I don't see why we can't copy one of the more restrictive EU countries (to keep the moderates happy), like Italy, also a very catholic country.

[Lottapianos]

'I agree with up to term freely available, personally'

Same here. Anything less is the thin end of the wedge. As long as that foetus is living inside a woman's body, she gets to decide what happens - not allowing her this choice means she is viewed as lesser than a man in the eyes of the law and that's not something I can tolerate.

I also work with young children and their parents and I see how much effort and sacrifice and commitment it takes to do a good job of raising a child. Just as every child should be a wanted child, every parent should be fully committed to being a parent and should be ready for the challenge. I can't see what purpose is being served by forcing terrified or angry or resentful women into becoming somebody's mother.

[bumbleymummy]

Kobay, what part of my posts aren't you understanding? Technically technically it was allowed under those circumstances but the the lack of legislation made it difficult for doctors. Now the legislation will be in place.

[bumbleymummy]

Most people draw their 'pro-choice' line a bit sooner than full term but technically if you are supporting abortion from the pro-choice position then you should accept that it is a woman's right to chose right up to the point when she gives birth. Thankfully we live in a civilised society where people who apply those beliefs can be convicted of murder.

Wrt 'surviving independently' - what about babies/children/adults with severe disabilities that mean that they can't survive independently. Do they not have a life?

[bumbleymummy]

Choose*

[HoldMeCloserTonyDanza]

Canada has no limits on abortion and it is a lovely, civilised, first world country with excellent rights for women and universal free health care. It's not paradise but the fact it leaves abortion entirely up to women and their doctors has not led to societal collapse.

Having said that I would be happy with abortion up to 12 weeks for everybody, and in cases of serious risk to maternal and foetal health thereafter.

What I think will happen - first we will get TFMR. That will take another court case, a long battle, more couples forced to air their stories in the newspapers or the Oireachtas (while Ronan Mullen sneers at them ). But it will happen. Maybe two, three more years. No more than five. TFMR actually has more support than abortion for suicidal ideation.

TFMR might require overturning Article 40.3.3. Selfishly, I almost hope it does, because I think a campaign to remove it from the Constitution to allow for TFMR would almost certainly pass. But that is selfish - TFMR women deserve abortion regardless of whether everybody else can get it too.

So after TFMR, we are back to teenage rape victims in care, and women like Savita whose health but not life is compromised. One of them will die. Maybe more than one. And there will be protests and marches and vigils and gradually public opinion will force a referendum. How gradually? Ten years? Less? It depends on who is in the Dail. They have all learned that SPUC and Iona and Youth Defense are losing power, though. That's great.

[HoldMeCloserTonyDanza]

So you think Canadians are all baby murderers then bumbley?

[bumbleymummy]

Nope. Not all Canadians are having late term abortions for non-medical reasons are they?

[skylerwhite]

Thankfully we live in a civilised society where people who apply those beliefs can be convicted of murder.

I think you might need to check your facts there bumbley

[bumbleymummy]

True skyler, it depends on where you are. Sadly we aren't as civilised as I hoped. Some doctors carrying out late term abortions have been convicted of murder.

[skylerwhite]

Some might consider it a mark of civilisation that a society grant all its citizens the right to bodily integrity. Guess you don't, though.