To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

Yes. There's your answer.

Very easy to say but I wonder how easy it would be for you to stick to that opinion in a real situation.

are you still wittering on about how people don't know their own opinions while not having a clue what your own is based on? Don't you tire of looking so daft?

I knew you'd say that.

Don't you tire of not being able to have a conversation without throwing in an insult? How immature.

I knew that you would say 'yes' Baby.

Do you not think if you go down the route of 'its only a foetus' it kind of minimises things like late miscarriages and stillbirths with them 'not really being babies' etc?

Do you not think that constantly harping on about late term abortions that are illegal in most countries and basically never happen even where they are legal is pointless and off-topic and makes you look like you are either a) trolling or b) totally callous and insensitive to the thousands of real women every year who are forced to leave their countries to terminate fatally ill pregnancies and pregnancies that resulted from rape and forgo proper medical aftercare?

Why are you so concerned with something that never happens when these actual, real issues are affecting actual, real Irish women? Why are you so determined to quiz every Irishwoman in this thread about her opinion of a procedure that never happens when we have real problems that could fucking kill or maim us?

Avoiding the question again.

And supporting something because you think 'sure, it never happens anyway' is a bit to say the least.

Stillborn and miscarriages are not relevant to the debate. Anything anyone says you twist to suit your agenda.

So, here's something actually relevant to Ireland and Irish law. This story broke this morning.

www.irishtimes.com/news/health/uk-inquiry-as-woman-from-ireland-dies-after-abortion-1.1470902

A woman died in a taxi in London in January 2012. She suffered massive blood loss after an abortion at 20 weeks. The reason she wasn't able to travel before then was it took her and her husband that long to get the money to travel. She had a preexisting condition but because it was not life threatening Irish hospitals could not help her.

This is what I'm talking about when I keep saying that we have abortion in Ireland - just not for the poor. We make poor people have later abortions because they can't get their hands on a grand quickly. We make them go without proper aftercare because they have to rush back to Ireland to get back to work.

There is another layer to this which is the question of why it's coming to attention now when it happened 18 months ago. Last week we had the SPUC and Precious Life funding a man who went to court to try to stop his girlfriend travelling for an abortion. It turned out she didn't want an abortion after all and they have retreated in a pro-life glow to Northern Ireland.

Is this another SPUC publicity ploy? Or is it simply that this poor woman's husband has realised that you don't get results in Ireland without massive publicity?

Clickable link!

www.irishtimes.com/news/health/uk-inquiry-as-woman-from-ireland-dies-after-abortion-1.1470902

Ohfg you are so obsessed with late term abortion and it really isnt relevant to the debate in ireland as it will never be something they allow, its only allowed in the uk for medical reasons. You seem to think however tgat if it were allowed it would happen willy nilly. Doing a great disservice to women and actually ignoring the facts that show in counyries were it is legal late term abortion is very rare and almost always done for medical reasons.

And as for saying it does a disservice to those who suffer miscarriage and stillbirth, no it doesnt i have had two miscarriages and i can be sad ovrt and mourn my loss whilst still understanding that not all pregnancies are wanted. But even in cases of abortion and particulaely in late term abortion they are wanted pregnancied but circumstances have meant that abortion is the right option for that woman. Infact in cases of tfmr it is oftrn a sekfless act by the womam who dearly wants the preg to continue and to hqve a baby.

And as unpalatable as i may find the thought of late term abortion i said before and i say again, i believe womem have the right to bodily autonomy and the woman trumps the foetus. Plus tge current laws in the uk are actually disabilist in allowinh abortion for medical reasons only which essentially placrs a value judgement on the worth of the life of a person with disabilities.

Even so the majority of abortions take place by twelve weeks, over 80% and actually 61% of abortions take place within the first eight weeks of pregnancy. Women that want abortions do it as early ad posdible if they can, no-one chooses to wait til a later stage of pregnancy, unlike the poor woman linkef to above who had to wait until she could afford to travel.

And supporting something because you think 'sure, it never happens anyway' is a bit to say the least.

That's not why I support late term abortion. I support late term abortion because I support a woman's right to choose what she does with her body.

HoldMe, I'm pretty sure that is a prime example of 'twisting things to suit your own agenda'. The woman had an abortion in England and then bled to death. My reaction to that is to think 'the standard of care that allows a woman to bleed to death after a procedure is appalling'. The treatment that goodasitgets spoke of earlier was hardly first rate either. I notice that you've casually glanced over that and gone for 'abortion should be available in Ireland'. Is this really what we should be aspiring to?

No 5madthings, I've said several times that I'm talking about it in relation to people on this thread being pro-choice ie supporting the woman's right to choose right to abort a healthy foetus up until the point that she gives birth,not whether or not it would become Irish law. My reference to late miscarriage and stillbirth was in relation to people saying things like 'it's only a foetus', 'it's not alive', it's not a baby etc.

Wrt you supporting the right to bodily autonomy, how does the fact that the woman will have to give birth anyway come into it? The foetus does not require the woman's body any more - its own body is perfectly capable of survival on its own. The woman is not exercising control over her own body (she has no choice at that point, except to give birth). The only thing she is doing is controlling the foetus' body. Why should that be allowed and (more importantly) why would anyone support that?

Skyler, see above, at that point it is not really her body that she is controlling, is it?

You didn't bother your arse to read the article then? She was 20 weeks when she had an abortion, which is probably why she died. If she could have had it at home, she probably would have ahd it earlier.
But whats another dead women to you? You obviously don't give a shit about how many die, as long as some more unwanted children are born. Which I doubt you give a shit about after they are born, either. What is it about unborn foetus' you are so obsessed about?

Yes, I did read the article. You're letting the Marie Stopes clinic a bit off the hook there aren't you? Don't you think that a woman should be able to have an abortion at 20 weeks without dying from it?

Wow, you really are grotesque and devoid of compassion. It's clear from your posts that you don't really care about women at all, do you.

You don't think that the fact that poor woman had to travel abroad for an abortion had anything to do with her death? That she had to wait to save up the money for flights pushed the date later and later? Shame on you.

May I just say again what a pleasure it is to read your posts. The false accusations and general aggressive tone are just lovely.

I guess you missed the part where I said that it was appalling that she was allowed to bleed to death. Sure, that means I have no compassion .

I notice that you both seem to be dodging the issue about the poor standard of care. Considering that you support the idea of abortion to term, don't you think it should be safe for a woman to have one at any stage?

There were a hell of a lot more women bleeding to death in back-street abortion clinics.

Abortion is a medical procedure. There is a risk in every medical procedure. This woman tragically died, far from her home, and in distressing circumstances. There is an on-going investigation. We do not yet know that it was because of deficiencies in the standard of care that led to her death.

Are you trying to imply that because one woman died following an abortion, that all abortions are unsafe?

We're talking about a private abortion clinic in London, not some dodgy back-street place. No, i'm not implying they're all unsafe. Just wondering why you aren't outraged by the fact that she died while having a procedure in a supposedly reputable clinic. I was accused upthread of not caring about women and their babies once they are born. Perhaps you don't care about the women once they have had the abortion, just as long as they can have it whenever/wherever they want?

You didn't answer the point that she is far less likely to have died if she had been able too have one at home. You think she still shouldn't be able to, ergo, you care little for her life.
It's your position, not ours.

How can there be outrage when we don't know the cause of her death yet? I suspect you are looking for any possible opportunity to demonise abortion clinics, but I'd prefer to wait for the facts to emerge (possibly through an inquest, although I note that you paid scant attention to this in the Savita Halappanavar case) before rushing to judgement.

We do know some of the circumstances: most notably that she delayed her abortion because she couldn't afford the price of it plus travel to England. That's worthy of outrage in and of itself.