To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

Really skyler? Because unlike the 19c we have contraception now.

Also, just to clarify, you are saying that you do, in fact, sympathise with Baby Ps mother and Daniel Pelka's mother?

Contraceptives are not foolproof, bumbley.

I'm not familiar with the Pelka case. In the Baby P case, which was grotesque, horrific and wrong, I think t was pretty clear that his mother had had an appalling childhood of abuse herself. So I had some sympathy for her, not her actions. See the difference?

Oh, never mind. 'Funny you should say that...there was another thread recently about a young girl who was pregnant and plenty of 'pro-choicers' stated that they would be 'forcing' their daughters to have abortions in that situation'. Bumbley, was I on that thread? Have I ever insinuated that I would encourage, never mind force, anyone to have an abortion? I would never dream of doing this, nor would anyone I know.

FWIW, my Mum did suggest abortion to me when I was pregnant at 17. I am bloody well still grateful to her for this. She didn't cajole, coax, force or encourage. She made a suggestion (as a loving, caring parent) and DP and I decided to go with her suggestion. She helped us make the right decision for us. Which is what parents are supposed to do, right?

Yes, skyler, I am aware of that but they are a hell of a lot more effective than the nothing that was available in the 19c

of course we aren't talking about chocolate. But since you can't grasp how someone can want everyone to have the right to do something they wouldn't choose to do themselves, I had to really over-simplify it for you.

Maryz, I don't think shoplifting is a good analogy either its too weighted to the other side, but I see what you mean.

Also, on your last point, I think thats what a lot of people do in fact say, an i think recently it has become a lot more acceptable to say.

Skyler, again, I see what you are trying to say but no, I don't agree with you. Plenty of people have shit childhoods and don't go on to abuse and murder their children.

Shadow, I wasn't talking about you specifically just pointing out that some people who consider themselves 'pro-choice' would actually think it ok to encourage/force their own child to have one if they considered it to be 'for the best'.

Koba, no, you don't have to over simplify it. Just because I don't agree with you doesnt mean I don't understand you.

You said you didn't understand me, and thought I didn't understand my own opinion. If you take that back and would like to apologise for such an insult, I'd be gracious and accept.

Most of us don't express those views Maryz, not in real life, because we know they are unpopular. Especially those of us who actively work in this area, its counter-productive. But here, against those that are so entrenched anyway, sure you might as well, give them somehting to froth about.

It's the anti-abortion folk who are asking directly about the late abortions, though. Even though such cases are statistically very very low. I and other posters are simply giving opinions when asked. Do you think we should lie or obfuscate?

I agree with you on the possibility of introducing early and limited medical abortion. I think that would be a very good step in the right direction.

'Shadow, I wasn't talking about you specifically just pointing out that some people who consider themselves 'pro-choice' would actually think it ok to encourage/force their own child to have one if they considered it to be 'for the best'. Okay, Bumbley, I do see your point there, to an extent. I imagine that we all see the worst in the opposing sides of the argument... So whilst you see that pro-choicers are all liable to cajole their children into having abortions, I see pro-lifers as being misogynistic Iona Institute types, who will yell for the right of every baby to be born, unless it is born to a single-parent / gay family, at which point they will turn their back on said baby, as it is not part of a 'real' family. I'm not being facetious there, btw, that is actually my experience.

I do think it best that we all strive to have a mature, reasoned debate. That being said, I will always be pro-choice, and I will admit to having a somewhat dim view of pro-lifers, after a colleague told me a few days ago that I am a murderer, and that had I ever had a miscarriage, I would have to be pro-life (after four MC's I didn't take kindly to that).

I can understand that Maryz, it must be difficult to reconcile that. Brave of you to admit it.
It's not easy, even for those of us with very staunch views in one direction. I think if its an easy call, you're not thinking deeply enough about it.

It's likely that she knows at least one person, its just not something that is ever mentioned, I think. It's much more taboo to admit to here.

'She knows no-one (as far as she knows) who has had an abortion. I suspect it might be very different if we lived in mainland UK.' As far as she knows though, Maryz. As far as I knew, I was the only person in my 6th year class who had had an abortion. Until, 7/8/10 years later, when I bumped into others from my year, they told me that they had had abortions. I hope that none of your daughter's classmates have had abortions (for their own sakes), but it's impossible to know. None of my classmate's parent's would have ever imagined that sciency, intellectual, nerdy, bookish me would have ever have had an abortion either.

If someone is vocally anti-abortion - even if they are an otherwise lovely 17 year old - they will not get told if someone they know has an abortion. It's too risky. The woman/girl can't trust them.

I did campaigning for years before IRL people trusted me enough to say it.

And now people say it a LOT. Because one in ten Irish pregnancies (at least, it could be more) ends in abortion. EVERYONE knows women who have done it, they are ordinary women. 150,000 of them.

From a practical standpoint. Article 40.3.3 prevents any more legislation being passed.

There is a slim chance TFMR is an exception to that. It hinges on a fatally ill baby not qualifying as "unborn" (because it cannot survive to become "born"). But this is just a theory, and a nebulous one. The government has contradicted itself on the issue. So there will be court cases - perhaps to Europe - to get to the bottom of it. Then parliamentary committees, blah blah blah

In 2-3 years, we might have TFMR passed. Probably first there will be a referendum - not on specific legislation but purely to remove 40.3.3. It's appallingly ill thought out.

Then I think it will be abortions within 10 or 12 weeks. That's how it went in Poland and Portugal.

Obviously I would love more liberal legislation along the lines of the rest of the Anglophone world - countries we consider our peers in every other respect - but realistically I think we will get this. In 10-20 years. Depends on the political climate. Labour and Sinn Fein will act on it sooner (SF is far more liberal on this south of the border, it's weird).

It's 20 years since they got that horrendous Article in, it will probably take another 20 to get it out. I'm not going to stop until we do though.

Koba, as I have said before, I understand what you are trying to say but I don't agree with you. What I can't understand is how someone who seems otherwise intelligent thinks like that but hey ho! Each to their own and all that.

Skyler, why shouldn't we ask about them when people are saying that they support the idea of having abortions available 'on demand' to term?

MaryZ, I can completely understand why your children would take the position that they do. People on this thread basically think they shouldn't exist - that their lives weren't worth anything because their mother didn't want them. I'd be pretty offended by that idea.

Shadows, very true. People will always look at the extremists when they are forming their opinions. There are a few people on this thread who support the idea of abortion on demand to term but the truth is that most 'pro-choicers' support the idea of the 24-week cut off (and would be happy to revise it downwards if it was changed) and some even feel uncomfortable with that. FWIW I have no problem with gay couples adopting - a good family is a good family afaiac.

I didn't say that you shouldn't ask them - I was simply responding

FWIW, I don't go around looking at adopted people, thinking 'you shouldn't exist, you shouldn't exist'. But your tenacity in your campaign to attempt to demonise those who are pro-choice is noted.