To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

Considering that at 37 weeks the woman is going to have to give birth either way I don't see how the foetus is impeding on her life. If she gives birth to the baby live, it will (more than likely) survive. No comment about the women who commit infanticide?

Kobay, the woman would actually have to make the effort to kill the foetus at that point to prevent it being born alive and capable of surviving. The woman is not essential to its survival at that point. I can not even get my head around your kind of logic and tbh I don't think you can either. It's just political correctness and feminism gone mad.

Yes Lucy, I am aware of that too. Are you aware that we are discussing abortion to term because that it was some people think should be allowed regardless of whether he foetus is healthy or not. Would you be happy with that?

I agree in part, Maryz, but not all laws are decided by referendum. Most laws aren't, they are introduced by Bill into either the Dail or the Seanad , and have to be passed by both, after committee review, consultation, and various stages.
I think we should stop fannying around with referendum, because as you say, the vast majority of the voting public will never have to consider abortion in direct relation to themselves, so I don't see why they should be considered at all. Just pass the legislation and join the 21st century. Because Irish women already have abortions, they just don't have them in Ireland.

Bumbley, please don't insult me by saying I don't know my own mind, how dare you?

by the way "pc gone mad" is the godwins law of its argument. You lose.

The reason I am going over it again skyler is because I think it's ridiculous that anyone actually thinks like that. Including being sympathetic towards women who commit infanticide. Perhaps I should just refer to you as anti-baby? I'm presuming you aren't sympathetic towards women who murder their children? Or perhaps you are. Do you have a cut off? When does a child's life become valuable enough that you think the murderer deserves to be punished?

Feminism gone mad? Quick, call the police

I did address your point on infanticide, by the way.

I am sympathetic to women who murder their children, yes. Aren't a lot of people? It doesn't mean we think its ok.
But abortion is not murder. Thats no opinion, thats LAW.

Well you've already said that the idea doesn't agree with you yet you still support it. I'm not sure how that suggests 'knowing your own mind' tbh. Doesn't sound like you do to me.

Then you can't grasp the subtlety. Who says that abortion at all agrees with me personally? I SUPPORT ALL WOMENS RIGHT TO CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES, IRRESPECTIVE OF MY OPINION, OR YOURS.

How is that so difficult?

That question about commenting in infanticide was for 5mad skyler.

No I don't agree with abortion to full term but then this is also illegal in the UK isn't it? except when the mothers life is at risk.

You can refer to me in whatever manner you choose. Just accord me the right to bodily autonomy.

I am sympathetic to women who murder their children. Like Koba I don't agree with it - but I sympathise with it. The research that I've done on 19th c infanticide reveals that the women concerned were vulnerable, frightened and desperate. Usually very poor as well.

So you support something you don't agree with. Yeah, that sounds really sensible.

Currently Lucy, but not if some of these posters had their way.

What about the ones in the 21st century? I'm also curious about when your cut off is for a child's life becoming valuable enough to not sympathise with their murderers. Or are you always sympathetic if they are poor and frightened?

Last para to skyler.

Did you sympathise with Peter Connelly's mum? What about Daniel Pelka's mum? Are you sympathising with her right now? I'm sure she had a very valid reason for starving her son to death....

'perhaps I should start referring to pro-choicers as Anti-foetus/pro-abortionists ...', well, no, because those of us who are pro-choice have nothing against foetuses. Nor do we wish to force abortions upon women who do not want them. Every pro-choice person I know supports the right of every woman to be allowed to make a choice for themselves. I know many pro-choicers who, in fact, could never even entertain the idea of abortion for themselves, but do not wish to deny bodily autonomy to all women, based on their personal feelings. Whereas most pro-lifers / pro forced birthers wish to deny women that choice. To me, that is the key difference. I would never wish to force my beliefs on anyone. However, those who are pro-life wish to impose their will on everyone.

However, that is my opinion, and based on my own experience. I cannot presume to speak for every pro-choice person. I will also admit that I may be at the extreme end of the pro-choice spectrum. I do not, and never will, believe that a foetus has the same rights as the mother. I believe that the rights of the mother always, always trump the rights of the foetus. I support abortion to term. I do not believe that abortion is murder. I have travelled to the UK several times, to support women through having an abortion. I have done this for women that I know, at my own expense. I would happily do it for a stranger, at my own expense, if it would provide a woman with the support she needs.

Oh good lord, its painful. Lets try and simplify.
I don't like chocolate. Lots of people do though. Even though I don't like it, I'm fine with you having it, because it has nothing to do with me. Do you see?
Whether or not I am personally ok with abortion has nothing to do with it. I want those that want them to get them, safely and easily, and those that don't want them I want not to have them.
Seriously, this is a very very common opinion. I think if you slow down and think about it, you can understand this simple concept.

Maryz, I know that, but people of good conscience can (and should) work to change the parts of their society they don't like, or find offensive.
That might be the way it is, but we don't have to put up with it, like it or not.

"Nor do we wish to force abortions upon women who do not want them"

Funny you should say that...there was another thread recently about a young girl who was pregnant and plenty of 'pro-choicers' stated that they would be 'forcing' their daughters to have abortions in that situation.

I can't believe how many people can actually convince themselves that 'life' only begins at birth.

Oh, bugger. I apologise, it took me so long to type up that post, the conversation has moved on. Please excuse the random interjection into the on-going conversation

You seem to think that having sympathy for someone in extremis and believing that what they did was wrong is mutually exclusive. I don't.

The point about 19th c infanticide is that these were the women who were desperate beyond measure not to have a baby. If we had the abortion laws that you seem to want, there would be a much higher rate of infanticide and/or women dying in backstreet clinics.

Problem is Koba, we're not talking about chocolate here. I know what you're trying to say. I just don't agree with you.