To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

[ARealDame]

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

Marie stops I'm belfast only preform abortions up to nine weeks within our current laws In Northern Ireland

?Our provision of early medical abortion will be the same service that is currently available from the NHS in Northern Ireland, available only within the current legal framework: that is, if a woman?s life is at immediate risk or there is a risk of ?real and serious? long term or permanent damage to her physical or mental health, she may have an abortion in Northern Ireland.?

HoldMe, does that mean you don't support abortion to term in principle? Earlier posters did mention them before I did and skyler agreed.

Skyler, that's still 650+ abortions.

Lol ok tonydanza, you can pass judgement all you like!
I am not saying it's right or wrong, but the majority of women here, are happy with the current laws. This is what we voted for. So wether anyone outside Northen Ireland or the Republc believes its wrong or not, this is a democracy and what the majority of the people want.

650+ for after 20 weeks. It's unclear how many of those are at or after 38 weeks. What the Canadian statistics show is that a properly liberalised system of abortion access for women (which is not regulated by law) results in the vast, vast, vast majority of abortions being performed long before 20 weeks - which proves Apocalypse's point that most women who want an abortion want it as quickly as possible.

Technically skyler, you'd be interested in how many we're over 24 weeks (because that's the current law in the UK)

I am not getting drawn into the term debate, it is derailing and taking attention away from the point of the thread which is IRELAND'S abortion laws.

It's irrelevant, they don't happen even where they are legal.

Norn in Ireland opinion poll after opinion poll shows people believe our Article 40.3.3 is outdated. They want change but our politicians are too afraid of ultraconservative vested interests to bring it about. It has taken 20 years and two referenda for "democracy" to help Irish women.

Canada has a lower abortion rate than the UK anyway. Also, I guess we differ in that even one full term abortion for non-medical reasons is too many afaiac.

That's fine HoldMe. I think you probably draw your line earlier than full term anyway which does introduce some interesting ideas into the debate (which is why it is relevant) but you don't have to get involved if you don't want to.

Kobayashu, but those arguments are exactly the sort of mental imagery that the pro-life movement use. And once those images have been put into people's heads, who are already unsettled by the concept of abortion in any instance, they can sway decision makers and voters to keep abortion illegal. Which is exactly what is happening over here.

It's why this legislation is incomplete, because the government knew that trying for the referendum again would fail as there is no universally agreeable gestation at which termination is always morally acceptable.

Late term abortions in the US are classed as anything after 20 week. So non viable foetus' are being ranked alongside full term pregnancies for those statistics. And when the debate gets going that 1.5% figure will be pulled out and the pro-life movement will fail to mention it's counted from 20 weeks, they will suggest 1.5% of abortions in america are performed on full or near term infants who could otherwise survive. And the public will be horrified, vote no and we're back to where we started.

We need the discussion of early term abortions to be completely isolated from the larger debate of female choice if Ireland is to have any hope of bringing in a change in legislation. Because it is exactly that confusion which is holding a lot of people back from agreeing with the notion of legalising abortion.

Yes the change that has been voted for as in legal in certain circumstances, which I believe is right, and the vast majority of people on this island do too, but only certain circumstances, right or wrong it's the view the majority of people here have.

I completely agree with it and think they are going the right away about it.

Abortion shouldn't be just allowed because you don't fancy having the child. If your child is going to be born with such a serious disability they wont have quality of life you should be given the choice whether to terminate and if your own life is put in danger by having the baby, you should be given an abortion.

Otherwise, it's just used as a contraceptive.

Which is ridiculous, costs money on the NHS for that persons choice of not using contraception [usually, although of course sometimes the odd slip up happens. If you know you are very fertile though it's best to take 2 or 3 forms of contraceptive, just in case].

I wont complain to others who have one though and these are my opinions and I know they aren't shared by everyone. If someone I knew had one I'd be disappointed in them, but I wouldn't cut them out of my life.

It's not a "vast majority". It's 46% vs 39%.

www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ipsos-mrbi-poll-shows-wide-support-for-more-liberal-abortion-law-1.1426507

That's just opinion polls though. Nobody has been allowed vote on this since 1983. I wasn't even born then. But Article 40.3.3 could kill or maim me anyway.

I don't think any voter in Northern Ireland has ever been consulted on abortion. The legislation governing abortion dates from 1861 and 1945.

Regardless of whether it's the view of the majority, other people - even foreigners - have the right to hold opinions about it and campaign for change, and support those who already are campaigning for change in NI and ROI. They even have the right to judge a society that preserves those laws. You didn't answer any of the points put to you about judging other situations (apartheid, honour killings, forced marriage), I notice. That really is a ridiculous position to take.

Skyler white you are sounding ridiculous. Of course honor killings etc are wrong. Are they legal? The difference here is abortion expect in circumstances is not.
You can't force everyone in every country to share the same opinions as you do, just because you think they are right!

NornIronMum

I don't understand why it's any one else's business but our own country people's. it's a democracy, that's the point. It is not up to anyone who does not reside here, either in the North or the South to judge it or get involved. I think England has more than enough of its own problems to worry about right now, try sorting them out first!

The point of putting these other situations to you was to clarify if you thought it was all right to judge them or get involved in campaigns to reverse them. It's not about forcing other people to share the same opinions, it's about responding to your attitude of 'you're not from here, so it's none of your business'.

No skyler it was responding to the posters saying Ireland was not as civilised as England because you can't get an abortion here, or the poster who would not travel here because of it.
Right or wrong, many people here feel abortion apart from I'm certain circumstances is wrong and are happy it's not legal here, it does not make England a superior country because you can have an abortion there If you choose.

English people (and Americans, French, German, anyone actually) are allowed to have opinions on and judge NI and ROI for their failure to provide proper access to abortion. You seem to be denying that.

And it does make England (or Britain, more accurately) a superior country for women's rights.

But Norn, you can have an abortion if you're from NI or Ireland too. You just have to travel for it.

Is the culture really that different? The only people actually affected by these laws are pregnant children, women in abusive relationships, and women who are very very poor.

Everybody else has the right to an abortion, they have to pay through the nose and they often end up going without proper medical aftercare, but they can choose it if they want.

So what are we going for here? Should the hundreds of thousands of women who have chosen abortion be put in prison? Most of them were abortions for social reasons after all.

We are going for abortion that is legal under certain cirmstuances as has been voted in. That's it, if there is further change we will see how it goes and what the people want!
Lol yes Britian is far superior ( it's this view that makes me never want to travel there)

Maybe it's mad.

The scandals really shock me. Forced adoptions, symphysiotomies, I can't get my head around it honestly. Some shameful things have happened. And we say they won't happen again... But we just passed a law to send women who import abortion pills to 14 years in prison. Somebody is going to be convicted of that. It will be another scandal. Probably some frightened kid, like most of the previous cases.

Or maybe somebody will die because they didn't get medical care after a UK abortion, or because they bought they bought pills online from a dodgy website and were too afraid to go to their doctor when it went wrong because they would be sent to prison.

They will die and we will have a vigil

I'm Irish, by the way, Norn. That means I'm allowed to have an opinion on this, according to you .

"A baby which could be removed alive and put up for adoption with no greater risk to the mother at that stage of pregnancy is instead injected into the heart with a lethal dose of medication to kill it. The mother then gives birth to this dead infant. Her body has been through an entire pregnancy and now the birth, her physical health is exactly as it would have been if the baby were alive. Instead of giving the living child away after the birth a decision has been made to end its perfectly viable life." Are you talking about a full term abortion SummerRain?

I know a big deal is made about the advances in medical science which means that babies born at the same age that late abortions are still allowable, but many of those babies have severe health problems. Delivering them at that stage instead of terminating would just mean many more disabled babies in the care system. My aunt has spina bifida and grew up in care, she was never adopted. There aren't that many people clamouring to adopt a baby with disabilities.

And the overwhelming amount of late term abortions are already because a severe disability has been discovered.

NornIronMum I'm in NI and most women I know do not support the lack of abortion service, the very restrictive time frame Marie Stopes operates under. I've 3 kids - I didn't realise I was pregnant until 6-7 weeks. Should I have wanted or been considering an abortion I'd be so tight for time - maybe I'd make a snap decision, I'd have to get the money, what if I didn't want my partner to know?

I have 3 beautiful daughters, and every day I hope that they will be afforded the same rights and choices as women in other parts of the UK. That's all I want - equal rights to procure a service.