To not promise my MIL set "visiting rights" to my baby?

[Moominmamma86]

I had my first baby ten months ago and I've just gone back to work two days a week for now. I'm really lucky that my mum is happy to look after my ds and I'm comfortable with that arrangement both because I'm close to my mum and have a good relationship with her where we can talk things over re childcare issues and she is non-pushy about things, and also because DS is very happy with her.

My MIL lives two hours away and I don't know her very well partly because I'd only been with DP for a year when I unexpectedly fell pregnant. I find her quite difficult to relax around for various reasons but I do want her to feel involved as well. Just to give an idea of how the background, since ds was born we've visited them twice including over his first Christmas, been for a weeks' holiday to Scotland at the end of June. She/they have visited us on a number of other occasions too and overall we've probably seen them once a month or maybe a bit less. The reason I'm being so specific about that is that she is currently demanding that she can visit every four weeks. Obviously with the distance that means her staying in our flat and being there for several days at a time. We've arranged for her to come three weeks running in August (something she is happy to do) and look after my ds while I'm working.

I'm fine with her coming and staying, the problem is that I'm finding her general approach unacceptably pushy. She said to my DP that she wants to make sure she sees her grandson once a month so I called her to talk about it, and said we were looking forward to seeing her but could we keep the arrangement flexible, and make plans when we see her next. She just kept saying that she wanted to be sure to visit every four weeks and do the childcare and she felt that was a "reasonable expectation", so I felt backed into a corner. Eventually said that I didn't want to be pushed into committing to that and I "hoped that didn't sound horrible". She said she thought that was horrible, and we then had a stilted conversation about the weather and hung up.

I'm honestly not trying to stop her from seeing my ds but this has really put my back up, on top of the fact that she invites herself to stay and generally doesn't give me much choice about things (at least not without being rude myself). Recently I had plans with my family and she rang up on the tuesday of that week saying she wanted to come that weekend and it was just a really awkward position to be put in. And now of course I'm the bad guy for not agreeing to the once a month thing but I just don't want to set up that expectation as I feel we should be allowed to live our own lives and she should wait for an invitation. In practise we will see her more than once a month at times but other times it will be less and I don't see why I should be made to feel guilty about it.

Or am I being unreasonable? Should I just say yes?

FWIW, my parents live 4 hrs away and in laws live 3.5 hrs away so both have to come for weekend visits/we go there. We realised when DC1 was about 6mths old that both we & our parents are pretty busy and that we can't decide on one visit when the next one will be as it may then be months before they next get to see the DC. So, we do it on a rolling six month basis or thereabouts. There are exceptions as, for example, the in-laws realised they had a busy October coming up so we booked in the last weekend of September ages ago. In our experience few events come up which mean we have to re-arrange. We've passed the age of weddings; if there's a christening, we'd go but possibly leave the DC with the grandparents; if there's a 40th birthday, we could go & the grandparents could babysit; if one of my friends suggests lunch and its the in-laws visiting, I'd go & leave DP & the DC with the in-laws; if DP is invited to play golf & my parents are staying then he'll go. We have also realised that we're going to spend at least one weekend a month seeing grandparents but its important to me that that the DC have a good relationship with all of them.

My MIL was very similar except lived in the same town and expected daily contact. She demanded being the first to push DD in her pram, wasn't keen on me bf as wanted to share in feeding, wanted to be first to take her abroad (without us) etc. It only ended when we stood up to her. She would refuse to call and 'make an appointment to see her son' so we often didn't invite her in if it wasn't convenient. Stand up to her and there is a chance it will get better. MIL and I actually get on quite well now (16 years on) because we kept her at a distance when she was being demandy and things were a lot nicer when we are all civil.

Yanbu. Your baby and you get to make the decisions.

Hmm propertynight does the baby's father not get a say in the decision making, or is his role just that of sperm provider!

I know someone (can't remember who) says she knew someone would come on saying "One day you will be a MIL" but I still think it important to remind some of you young mums having trouble with MILs. I think though there have been some very thoughtful posts on here and suggestions for compromise.

I will put on my hard had and retreat but I have a suspicion that many young mums really don't like their MILs and so find reasons to complain. I wonder if the OP would feel a similar thing about her own mother if the situation was reversed. Of course young mums are in the main going to be closer to their own mum (I was to mine and had a rather controlling MIL but I found a "middle road" that we travelled along and I supported her right up until her death although she wasn't my kind of woman) but once a baby arrives it is only fair that both sets of grandparents are welcomed to be a part of the baby's life.

I think the thing is that no-one (other than the parents) have rights to maintain regular contact with the child, but the child has a right to grow up, knowing that he is love and cared for by both sets of grandparents.

Yes there are some dreadful MIL stories and I feel sorry for the DILs but it is a 2 way street you know. In my circle of friends most of us have DILs ad grand children and could tell you some horror stories about the way DILs treat their MILs and how the older woman feels she has to "tiptoe" around the DIL to ensure she doesn't upset her.

The old saying "A daughter's a daughter all of her life and a son is a son till he gets him a wife" is very often true and my own DIL told me that when her daughter was born, her mother said she was pleased because "you raise boys for someone else and you raise girls for yourself."

Isn't it interesting that we never hear about difficulties between MILs and Sons-In-Law, but often about SILs (MILs) daughter.

Finally I think the unfair thing is that when DILs see a thread like this they pile in with YANBU and I suspect these posters don't get on with their MIL and so take this line, whereas the more thoughtful posters probably have a good r/ship with their MILs.

Oh one more thing before I go. When a first grandchild is born, strange things happen to a grandmother - she remembers her own newborns and that maternal instinct that she had with them, sort of kicks-in a bit with the new grandchild. I don't think this is a conscious feeling at all and I can only look back and realise that it happened to me, with the birth of my first grandchild. Maybe this is the reason that some MILs appear to be demanding, or are wanting to know how often they can see their new grandchild. If it's any consolation, this is most apparent in the early months and does tend to diminish when the child is over 1 and especially when more grand children come along.

There is a book called "Birth of a Mother" and there should be one called "Birth of a Grandmother" so that these older women can be helped to understand those aroused maternal feelings from long ago, and hopefully forge a good r/ship with the DILs and grandchildren.

I have thought of writing one - what do you reckon?

Hmm propertynight does the baby's father not get a say in the decision making, or is his role just that of sperm provider!

I'm a bit confused because you previously said:

I feel sorry for so many men whose wives, partners get them to "have words" with their mother - that can only make the poor woman feel worse.

Since you didn't respond to me intentionally asking (totally cool, you may have missed it/not felt it was relevant!) But since you brought it up again, may I ask do you think your son should tell tell his own mother if there is an issue if DIL talking would make the MIL uncomfortable? I would have thought if the answer to a MIL's request was 'no,' it should be her own son who said so, equally the same for a daughter and her mum.

If the couple disagrees with MIL (be it husband with wife's DM, or wife with husband's DM) Surely someone HAS to say something? You come across as too caring to think 'Accept MIL's demands. You'll be a MIL one day' type, so I'm curious from a reasonable MIL perspective!

If any of that came out aggressive I'm sorry, was not intended! :)

FWIW, my MIL treats me rather poorly and my FIL is a huge pervert who once came over (when he knew DH wasn't home) and made a disgusting comment about my BFing my twins. I told him where to go and how if it ever happened again, DH would know because I know if DH knew, he'd cut him off. He's blind to FIL's stares (as my BIL's wife also complains about!) Because well.. He loves his dad. He stands up to MIL and I know if he ever found out about FIL he'd cut them off. Which is why I force an uncomfortable relationship for DC. Like you said, compromise. They're still family.

But that's my tangent! I guess my question basically just is: If there was ever an 'issue' with you, would you prefer DIL or DS confronted you? Would you just assume it was DIL with the issue if your DS used 'we' and 'as a couple' etc, etc.

Sorry, I don't have a reasonable MIl so a chance to pick a normal ones brains is too hard to resist!

Nina what a lovely well thought out post. You're right, there is a book in there, and I think the subject matter becoems ever more relevant with grandparents playing an ever larger role in the grandchildren's live. And this is a two way street: for every thread about a grandparent who feels it is his/her right to have unlimited access to the baby, there is another from a parent thinking that unlimited free childcare from the grandparents is an entitlement (Need to say I have gone way off piste here: Op I am not referring to you at all when I say that!)

I will just say one more tyhing and then ask for a loan of your hard hat Nina. The simple fact is that to be a grandmother you have to have been a mother. And at that point you probably will have had a DM(iL) who was probably not as perfect as you would have liked her to be. The point is the grandparent generation have the benefit of having seen it from both sides. Yes this means that they should be more understanding of the insecurities of the new parents, but it also means they can be forgiven for thinking 'Hmmm....just you wait' !

out of interest, OP, if your DH became the main carer and proceded to impose his will (his baby, his choices, right?) on your mum, how would you feel?

I really do think you need to all sit down and talk this through as adults. And whilst it might be true to say that your MiL doesn't have any 'rights' with regard to your DS - does that means DS (admittedly rather young!) not have any rights to form a relationship with all his GPs? You never know - he might end up preferring MiL! (DD definitely prefers MiL to my mum, mainly because she makes more of a fuss of her and is generally more attuned to childrens' needs and wants.)

There must be a way of getting some kind of arrangement in place to suit everyone. Family life is surely all about compromise - and it sounds like both you and your MiL need to do that.

"She just kept saying that she wanted to be sure to visit every four weeks and do the childcare and she felt that was a "reasonable expectation"

it's an unreasonable expectation - she shouldn't be expecting anything at all. Fine to visit when arranged, not fine to expect to 'do the childcare'

stupid.

oh, I didn't properly read Nina's very good (and rather more articulate) post before writing mine, sorry!

NanaNina I do read the OP carefully and wouldn't just say YANBU in order to take a swipe at MILs or anything like that :)

I've said a similar thing on a different thread but I tend to feel that an unreasonable sort of MIL doesn't just happen overnight they could well have been unreasonable DILs too.

Anyway I'm aware lovely in-laws exist, genuine misunderstandings happen in the nicest families, and I wouldn't just jump to every DIL's defence on the basis that mine are a bunch of clowns.

Applauds nana ninas well thought out post

Lovely post Nananina

When my first child was born, my mum (this was her first grandchild) said that he looked just like me, my brother and my sister did when we were born. I think she must have had that feeling of recognition/maternal instinct being triggered as you say.

Fab post NanaNina

I remember feeling horrified and revolted when my MIL said that holding my first child made her feel as if her breasts were getting ready to feed him.

On the other hand, I'm sure I've read recently that grandparents were quite crucial to the survival of young children back in the days of woolly mamoths etc - though not quite in that 'up close and personal' way, I hope

NanaNina - No, I don't think you should write a book - yet. You need to be willing to listen to different opinions and have them hone your thoughts, rather than stapling your colours to the mast, then leaving. I'm disappointed that there were some very respectful thoughtful questions raised that you have not responded to - respect is also a two way street, you know!

I do love what you are thinking about the birth of a grandmother. But I think you'll find that most posters here, including the OP, have no desire to deny their MILs a key role in extended family life. Although not always the case, I think the problems often arise because there is a contrast between the maternal grandparent's view and paternal grandparent's view, not because the DIL is suspicious or obstructive.

Briefly, the maternal grandparents love their daughter and love her child - partly for its own sake and partly because they're getting the chance to see their daughter become a mother. The baby's dad is usually not present so much and in any case tends to be quite happy to kick back while others coo at the baby, so no threat there.

The view often held by paternal grandparents is subtly different - at a deep level, they love the baby partly for its own sake and partly because it is their son's. The DIL is not a blood tie so there is nothing particularly gratifying about seeing her mothering skills in action. In fact, in real terms, the DIL may be perceived be nothing more a barrier to the baby. Hence the paternal MIL talking more about time alone to bond with the baby. That's where the juicy bit is for her - it's a chance to dust off her own mothering skills and relive parenting. She probably relates to the experience in a completely different way if it is her own daughter doing the mothering. So it is not fair to blame the DIL if she is unable to treat both sets of grandparents in exactly the same way.

If you think about it, many MIL have to swallow hard and let their son go off into marriage. Then they have to accept that this new experience of becoming grandparents is also happening in that reserved space - and the DIL tends to be viewed as the gate-keeper. This can be hurtful and serve as a reminder to the DIL that no matter how loved she is, she isn't quite a blood relation. These aren't issues that a DIL can resolve - she can only bear them, and she often does so to the best of her ability. But it can be hard work and is rather a big ask that someone give up a day a week of their precious maternity leave in order that this can all play out to the MIL's satisfaction.

Until you have looked deeply into those scenarios and been prepared to dig deeper to either consolidate or adapt your current position, I think you should hold off on the book.

Well done for speaking up I didn't and its still happening 5yrs on! Don't tie yourself to it just arrange month by month or you'll become resentful of the visits

Fabergeeg, exactly and hear hear.

Letsfacethusicanddance, I'm afraid babies would have been bf'd by not only the birth mothers in older societies.

However, your mil sounds erm, disconcerting.

My ex-stepbrother's mother was found trying to breastfeed his dd.

But she was just going through the birth of the grandmother role, right?

But but but... The paternal grandparents love their child and his child too.

I am the mother of an adult ds, I hope when he has children I am allowed as much access to them as the maternal grandparent. The child belongs to both the parents, and in turn both the grandparents, not one more than another.

I spent ages talking about bonding with my mil. She was great and helped me a lot, and I was grateful for the help.

Cut her some slack, she wants to be involved in your dcs life too. Let her come up once a month overnight, and get dh to take dc to hers once a month. And grandparents may not have rights, but they can apply to court for contact. I do not understand the mil threads on her at all. I have had 2 mil, and never had any real issues with either of them. I'm still in touch with and see my ex mil despite the fact myself and ex do split up 17 years ago

I think you make valid points Nana, but I do agree with fabergeegg.

I think this is exactly what I was thinking in relation to the OP:

"If you think about it, many MIL have to swallow hard and let their son go off into marriage. Then they have to accept that this new experience of becoming grandparents is also happening in that reserved space - and the DIL tends to be viewed as the gate-keeper. This can be hurtful and serve as a reminder to the DIL that no matter how loved she is, she isn't quite a blood relation. These aren't issues that a DIL can resolve - she can only bear them, and she often does so to the best of her ability. But it can be hard work and is rather a big ask that someone give up a day a week of their precious maternity leave in order that this can all play out to the MIL's satisfaction"

This MIL may not be a control freak, or horrible, or she may be (and have always been). But if she is simply anxious and in love with this babyshe needs to blinking well calm down and stop letting her anxiety make her bolshy and insensitive to the baby's mother

And PS

I have 2 sons (still children)

and I've also observed the dynamic between my mum and my SIL. I admire my mum for how she has managed things

I would be fairly confident that a lot of the posters telling op to stand her ground have poor, or at best, arms length relationships with their mil's (waits to be assured by some poster that they love their mil dearly).
Op, I think this is something you need to consider when you choose your path. All successful relationships require a bit of compromise - and lets be clear here - that does not mean being dictated to, held to ransom or sent on guilt trips. It just means a bit of give and take.
I enjoy a good relationship with my mil, but more importantly, my dc enjoy a very close and loving relationship with them which is invaluable. But it wasn't easy. It was hard work, particularly in the early days. I bit my tongue on countless occasions, and with hindsight I know this was the right thing for my family. Our relationship could have broken down, like you read about so often on here, and I'm glad I was able to avoid this (I appreciate sometimes this is inevitable).

you seem to be presenting a lot things as fact there, fabergeegg, which in my experience, at any rate, are very much not so. Any evidence to back your claims up?

also - one small point - the OP is not on being asked to give up any days of her precious maternity leave, because she isn't on ML any more - her OP states that she is back at work 2 days a week.

Fookin Nora faberegg You have described my situation perfectly...I agree with your every word.

What fabereegg has described is exactly how my MIL makes me feel

You're making some rather bold assumptions there,Faberge...in particular that none of the (excellent) points you raise have been considered by Nina She didn't give us the complete abstract for her book which is after all only in embryo at this stage but I would be surprised if some of your points weren't implicit in her idea which, let's face it, was only mentioned as the close to her post. But where you get that she is not prepared to acknowledge other points of view I have no idea.

Having said that. most books are written from one 'position' or another. Those that aren't can make for some pretty dull reading.