To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

Well I hate the word, so i would say I am pro equal rights, not feminist. It sounds like all those negative words to me - racist, bigamist, activist, opportunist etc... All sound negative. I also dislike being labelled as though everyone who believes women are equal hold the same views on what that means. For me it is a lexical issue.

I think what people mean is that its not their battle. Yes they want equal rights but they'll let others fight for it.

I really enjoy these threads, the diversity of thought in them is amazing.
I do identify as feminist and have done for decades, but often find myself at odds with much of the thinking and many of the stances displayed on the boards here.
Which is more important?
That a woman lives her life along broadly feminist lines, looking for equality for herself and others, pushing the boundaries of what is common practice if it is unfair and sexist, challenging assumptions as to what is a woman's role, image and place in society, building on the rights achieved so far?
Raising her children to have the same values, and to challenge inequality?
But saying 'I'm not a feminist'
Or a woman who proclaims herself a feminist yet uses the word as a way to be dismissive of others who don't hold the same ideals, calls other women rape apologists and insists that their thoughts are shaped by the patriarchy and thus not their own, who seem to set themselves up as the touchstone of what is true and then gets hurt and aggressive when others say 'I'm not a feminist because I'd have to be like you'

I struggle with women, is it the third wave or the fourth? who are choice feminists and think that pole-dancing, porn and being a WAG with added silicone and botox is a feminist stance.
But that's my personal problem, and my age and the values I have. They probably are feminists and I can't see it.
I look back all all the things we did and were part of in the 70s to gain the basics like the right to equal employment, the sex discrimination laws and the right not to be raped in marriage and I wonder what happened to the clarity.
The idea of feminism has evolved and morphed.
Now there are thousands of women I see living feminist lives with confidence and pride and raising their children with those attitudes who reject the label.
Why does it matter that they don't wish to define themselves? That they see a definition as restrictive?

Very good post eyes. You said what I wanted to say, without being rude.

Sorry for my rudeness, but this has riled me or a number of years.

Funny how when I say that it is a shame young people - men and women - have such little self worth that they repeatedly abandon their autonomy or drink, I am told that I am just 'trying to tell women how they should behave'...

But when I contribute to a thread on hiring sex workers for disabled people I am told that NO woman could ever genuinely consent to sex for money and now I am an apologist for sex trafficking.

It seems that some feminists cannot accept the broad church of female experience and they react with aggression if challenged.

I note Suzanne Moores recent refusal to use term 'sex worker' and how she prefers the term 'whore' instead. Nice. Yet I am the 'victim blamer'

Spero, your point about not wanting your daughter to get paralytic struck a chord with me.
DD is 22, DS is 18. I want neither of them to ever be so drunk that they are not in control of their own decisions, or able to attempt to protect themselves or call for help if attacked. I don't understand why that is an issue.

It must be because there is a fear that I am 'blaming' young women for getting raped when they get so drunk they can't protect themselves.

As I have said, the only 'blame' for rape lies with rapists. One thing I will give enormous credit to feminist campaigners is their insistence that the focus should be on telling men NOT to rape, not insisting women protect themselves.

But re drunkenness and rape, for me the risk of rape is not the most relevant consideration. I would like to know why anyone would think so little of themselves that they would repeatedly risk serious harm from abuse of alcohol. This is serious harm from impact of drink itself, risk of accidental injury, and yes risk of assault.

But the saddest case I recall recently was the young dental nurse who died of hypothermia outside her sisters house - to drunk to even put her coat on.

Yet when I raise these concerns I am told I am just 'telling women how they should behave'.

In what world is this kind of behaviour 'feminist' ? It is sad and bloody stupid and needs challenge.

I have the advantage of having one of each and giving the same advice to both.

Statistically, isn't it young men who are at most risk of attack on a night out?

I think we need to be challenging this depressing nihilistic culture for all young people, but god knows how seeing as it is unlikely a lot of them will ever have much to aspire to, certainly not a home of their own.

And I think it is important for feminists to unpick why they will support certain kinds of destructive behaviour from women such as excessive reliance on drink, but adopt an aggressive paternalistic attitude against others, such as stripping or selling sex.

Is it just because the latter two are seen as directly benefitting men?

Dunno, I disapprove of all of it. Is that because I'm an old-school feminist or because I'm an old bat?

Probably old bat status. I think the older you get the more you appreciate your mortality and realise that using the Telecom Tower as a homing beacon to get across London due to extreme drunkness is not v sensible. Ahem. But at least I can lecture my daughter from position of authority.

Sadly, I think I will have to stop dithering and say I do not want to identify as a feminist. I watched from the sidelines in horror as the whole Suzanne Moore/intersection debate unfurled. I don't want to be identified with a movement that 'debates' in such an aggressive and destructive way.

I shall continue as a humanist. I don't like anyone being denied the opportunity to use their skills or live their life because of some one else's bigotry.

I shall look out for you in the various debates and AIBU bunfights. [smile[
I think if you live a life that does as little harm as possible and tries to actively change things for the better, that you attempt to leave the world a little happier and better for your presence in it, the label is unimportant.

they don't want to be seen as being like exaggerated militant man-hating stereotype of what some people think a feminist must be like

This. Some people, a minority, make it a bad name. It's why I have the feminism boards on MN hidden.

Spero fwiw I agree with nearly everything you've said on this thread.

I'm a feminist.

Mindyourownbusiness Mon 01-Jul-13 00:12:39

That looks to be a fair analogy IMHO

I dislike the level of anger levelled at other women on many FWR boards, not a wide enough playing field for my taste.
But then I also get tangled up with accusations of my victim-blaming when I see it as taking responsibility for your choices as an adult.
Or when I think the need to protect children should be the priority in an abusive relationship.
But I don't hide the boards, because they make me think about why and what in more detail, and I like being challenged in my own head. If it gets too intense for me, I just leave the thread.

Agree with Spero, Worra and Eyes.

It amuses me (only mildly, though) when these threads pop up. They're generally started by posters who mostly frequent the Feminist boards and then leapt on with delight by the rest of the posters from that same place. Maybe it's too quiet there?

I dislike the word 'feminist'; it has many, many negative connotations and deservedly so. The moderate voices get drowned out, which is a great shame as the moderate voices are really what I think the 'masses' would actually listen to. It was a moderate voice who made me stop and think about many issues. Had a plague of activists bellowed those words at me, I would have stuck my fingers in my ears.

Why not live and let live and let women attach labels to themselves - or NOT - if they so choose? They have that individual right. To get worked up when a woman chooses not to affix a badge of your choosing just means that you will need to keep getting your blood pressure checked.

I see no benefit in trying to provoke posters by starting these threads if all you're going to do is berate them for not 'toeing the party line'. You're doing a great disservice really, in my view.

... oh, and if life really isn't the end, I will be sure to thank Emily Davison for her part in making life better for women. She actually did what many others are still, figuratively, taking credit for...

I think that the issue is with third wave (post eighties) feminism, which gets a bad press for (arguably) going too far. For example, I have seen women being made to feel guilty for preferring to be a SAHM and being reliant on their male partner, even though child care is something they care passionately about and entirely their choice. There are also the images of bra burning, and growing out body hair, which, though it is stereotypical, also gives feminism a bad name and makes some women feel it denies them their femininity.

However I doubt these women mean they wish that first and second wave feminism never happened, as it brought them the rights to vote, have an education, etc. They just mean that they don't identify with what feminism has gone on to be.

So, when women say they 'are not feminist, but...', it seems to me they mean they are not third wave feminist.

I remember in a feminism class at university we all had to read a 20 or so page article about how offensive it was that men dared to hold the door open for women in restaurants. Meanwhile, there are women in the world being married off to old men at the age of 11, but oh no, white middle class women are having the doors held open for them in restaurants, that must take priority. It's no surprise women are put off.

Isn't it a bit like racism though?

If you hold racist views, you a racist, regardless of whether you self identify as one. In fact, I would think most racists would say they aren't. It doesn't matter if they don't want to associate themselves with other racists who they think are too mean or who have treated them badly.

So if you believe that women should be treated equally and should be afforded equal status and rights, then you are a feminist, regardless? You can admit it or not admit it. You're still a feminist.

Thought-provoking post for me, Mintberry. It strikes a chord with me. The 'outlandish' activism might make sense to third wave feminists but none at all to those of us who don't identify with that.

I'm deeply saddened and angry by the fact that there are young girls married off to older men in the world, that's a very good point - yet too much focus is still on small niggles in the western world of door-opening. It definitely puts me off.

I'd like a term for somebody who hates labels. I really hate them. That's what I am, then, 'an opinionated and active non-descript' and happy to be so.

I think women should have the right to be what they want. And that includes being a dependent home maker if they so desire. Does that make me feminist? Or not feminist?

My stance is pretty much the same as eyes. Of course I'm a 'feminist', I support equality, who wouldn't?

However, I have a major issue with some of the more 'radical feminists' and don't really venture onto the feminism boards here, or indeed feel comfortable labelling myself as anything. There are a vocal minority which I feel stretch things and actually are pretty insulting and belitting to women. Want to stay at home? you're a failure. Someone says they like make up or heels, 'nah you can't possibly, you're a victim of the patriarchy'.

I would personally be more comfortable with a feminism that celebrates all types of women, not just ones that fit in with the narrow definition the more radical feminists believe in.

Also Mingberry's point, I just get tired with every.little.thing being some kind of feminist struggle. A man opening a door is just a nice thing to do, there really are bigger fish to fry out there.

Er MINT not Ming!! Sorry!!

For me it would be about the level of respect and the balance within the relationship, Saggy.
I have several friends in relationships that are strictly divided along gender lines, because it works very well for them. But they raised all 4 of their children without that becoming a problem, she taught both their sons to cook, and one excels at it whereas the other can keep himself alive.
Likewise, the oldest DD is in a very different sort of relationship to her parents' and no one has a problem with it.

'A man opening a door is just a nice thing to do'

Both my men open doors for people regardless of gender. As do DD and I.