Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

999 replies

Nickabilla · 30/06/2013 21:14

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 30/06/2013 23:13

40% of rape victims are drunk.

Why would you consider this a particular risk? Unless you wanted to contribute to victim blaming?

MorrisZapp · 30/06/2013 23:13

Feminism isn't about thinking that everything women do and say is beyond question or debate. You can be a feminist and disagree with things said by women.

There is no contradiction in finding non feminist women annoying.

SinisterSal · 30/06/2013 23:14

But it is very very disturbing to see that the prime idea of a good night out is young women who want to get so drunk they don't know where they are or what they are doing. They don't have anyone looking out for them. They don't value themselves or their own safety. I will teach my daughter NOT to do that. said spero

That is a good observation, worthy of a thread of it's own I think. Unless that makes me a hand wringing Youth of today Don't Know They're Born type

Spero · 30/06/2013 23:15

Victim blaming! I nearly have a full house on my feminist bingo card.

I do not wish to blame anyone. I simply think it is very very sad that a whole generation of young women seem to have such little sense of self worth that they wish to spend their evenings getting so drunk that they can't remember the next morning what they did the night before and who they did it with.

I think that is very sad. I hope my daughter will have more self esteem.

In what way does my sadness impart blame? Ah, in the world of feminist debate of course.

Again, I do enjoy my points being so well made by other people. Saves me quite a lot of effort.

LondonMan · 30/06/2013 23:16

The patriarchy has certainly done it's job with the advertising

Yes, to ensure maximum effect, we fine-tune strategy regularly at our secret meetings.

FreudiansSlipper · 30/06/2013 23:17

you are moving away from the argument as black women, disabled women and so on will face discrimination

But it is not about them having a vagina

all discrimination is wrong equality is a right everyone should have but men are not discriminated against because they have a penis women are because they are not men

Inertia · 30/06/2013 23:18

I get annoyed with the people who denounce feminism, as if seeking fair treatment for both sexes is somehow seeking to elevate women to the level of wannabe goddesses whose only aim is to trample men and industry into the ground. I also get annoyed with the propagation of the idea that all feminists are the same, seeking to enforce some kind of party line.

If people (male or female) choose not to identify as feminists, then that's their choice - part of the freedom that feminism has brought is the autonomy that women have over their own lives in comparison to other periods of history (though obviously there are many parts of the world where this is not the case).

Courageous actions by women have brought us (in the UK) many rights which seem so obvious that we're in danger of taking those rights for granted- the right not to be the property of our fathers or husbands, the right not to be raped, the right to vote, the right to equal pay for equivalent work, the right to make our own reproductive health choices. (And similarly, as workers we take for granted many of the rights that the unions fought for e.g. maternity pay, health and safety legislation, paid holidays- these are currently in danger of being eroded).

And for those who genuinely do believe that feminism has gone too far and that women should not have these freedoms and rights- I guess you can make the choice to renounce your own entitlement to maternity pay, you can choose not to vote, you could hand over decisions about your health to the man you understand to have ownership of you. If you want to demonstrate your lack of belief in unions, you could insist on working through the year without holidays, and perhaps negotiate a clause in your contract giving your employer free rein to make you redundant without compensation, or sack you without justification.

There are many human rights issues to be addressed around the world. But the unavoidable fact is that in some places, women are subjected to abuse and refused rights because they are women. In some places, people of different races, or different religions, or no religion, suffer human rights abuses, and this also needs to be addressed. But the fact that some men are also victims doesn't mean that no women should have their human rights supported.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 30/06/2013 23:19

You have a very low opinion of women. Not all women go out and get legless drunk all the time. Just like not all men go out and get drunk and look for fights all the time.

Women get raped in all situations - the advice not to get drunk is unrealistic. It can happen to you anytime.

Spero · 30/06/2013 23:19

The familiar knot of irritation in my stomach and eerie sense of deja vu confirms to me why it was wise to avoid the feminist boards this past year, and why I will continue to do so.

I hope that goes some way to answering your question op.

So sorry to have 'annoyed' you.

ANJALI777 · 30/06/2013 23:20

I agree with Starfish. Although women's rights have com a long way due to the feminist movement, for which i am grateful for, I am more pro equality than feminist. I don't think women are better than men. I think women should have equal rights as men, but men should have equal rights as women i.e maternity leave, part time working for family reasons etc.

There's a fine line me thinks.

WorraLiberty · 30/06/2013 23:20

Only rapists rape.

If my DH or any of my 3 sons happened upon a passed out attractive female with her skirt around her waist, the only thing they would do would be to call an ambulance.

That's because they are not rapists.

However, since the world is not full of decent men or women, I would be angry at any child of mine who got so wasted in a public place, due to their over consumption of alcohol, that they put themselves in such a vulnerable position.

Not wishing your offspring (male or female) to drink until they are unconscious in a gutter and putting themselves in a vulnerable position, isn't being an 'apologist' for anything.

It's called living in the real world....a world that contains nasty people of all ages/sexes/etc.

AKA common sense.

SinisterSal · 30/06/2013 23:20

But why Spero? Why do they think sex for eg is so worthless when it isn't? Arguably more so for women. It's a discussion we need to have.

LondonMan hiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

inadreamworld · 30/06/2013 23:20

Agree with picnic. They just mean they are not some masculine man hating extremist. I am not a feminist according to the usual descriptions of feminism so agree with Starfish on that one too!!

Spero · 30/06/2013 23:22

But before I go, I will ask you Sabrina to come take a tour of Britains' high streets around midnight on a Saturday night and ask if my sadness for a generation is misplaced.

I am not saying getting drunk means you will get raped, but by all means, continue to tell me this is what I am saying. This is a well known and successful tactic to engage with people who disagree with you.

I wish there was a sarcasm font, but hopefully you get what I am saying.

Better go to bed now before I get ever more drawn in to what I am sure will not be a productive exchange.

tangier · 30/06/2013 23:22

But all we as feminists want is for women to have equal rights as men. That's it. It's that simple.

Why would any woman not want that? I know my mother doesn't so I accept to some degree it is a generational thing. It doesn't deny women the choice to be sahm etc.

Rape though is a different conversation. It does annoy me that the onus is on the woman to avoid being raped rather than on the man not to rape.

ChippingInWiredOnCoffee · 30/06/2013 23:23

There's a whole topic for this - I'm sure you'll find some answers over there.

StarfishEnterprise · 30/06/2013 23:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MorrisZapp · 30/06/2013 23:27

I'm not supporter of binge Britain. Binge drinking is only palatable when it is me doing it, not the fake tanned plebs.

But just wondering, what does our present drinking culture have to do with gender or feminism? Do women have different livers or something?

SinisterSal · 30/06/2013 23:28

Spero I have engaged with you. Now you are being rude and dismissive. What should I conclude? Tongue sort of in cheek

worra agree. Only rapists rape. Skirt/no skirt/tracksuit/drunk/going to mass/going to dogging site - none of it matters if you don't meet a rapist.

Nobody want their teen to go out and get so pissed they don't know what is going on. In these discussions though there is the undercurrent of in case she can't defend herself (at the variable miniscule window in which it may be possible) against rapists. Some people see this as expecting the woman to always defend herself against rapists, some see it as more akin to slightly turning the odds in your favour. Those are the wires that always seem to cross in these discussions

Technotropic · 30/06/2013 23:29

tangier

The onus is always on the potential victim of any crime to minimise the risk of being a victim. I was at Tesco earlier and there was a sign in the car park telling me that car thieves operate in the car park. Strangely enough there wasn't a sign telling these thieves not to steal.

But ultimately I agree with Spero. It is not a good idea for anyone, male or female, to get so drunk that they are unable to take care of themselves. This isn't victim blaming. It's encouraging responsible behaviour.

Mindyourownbusiness · 30/06/2013 23:29

I just find it ironic that someone who defines themselves as someone against oppression or dictatorship etc etc for a particular group of society then asks if it's unreasonable to get annoyed at other members of that group who don't define themselves in the same way.

That may not be oppression or dictatorship in itself but it is along the same lines of thought that lead to these two evils.

IMO of course.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 30/06/2013 23:29

spero - I do know what you mean. Sadly I do. I have been (more than is probably good for me) a patron of drunken high streets at club chucking out time, than I should have. Prior to having dc that is... such is life.

I would no more advocate to my dd that she go out and get rat-arsed to that ectent than she go and become a lapdancer (it's not empowering). But I just think that it's so unebelivably ignorant to say getting very drunk will get you raped because... well because, so many women experience rape in other circumstances. When they're not even drunk. It's a red herring.

Upwards of 80% of women raped will know and trust their rapist. 60% will be stone cold sober. I just think the whole 'don't get drunk' thing
is just another way to dictate to women how they should behave.

Saidar · 30/06/2013 23:29

"YABU. A true feminist would respect any other woman's right to choose to identify herself however she deems appropriate." THIS.

For me being a feminist means deciding what you want to do with your life, and doing it. Think about why you want to do it, and make sure it is what makes you happy, not what is expected because of your gender/class/other thing that is not important, and fighting your hardest to do it while supporting others in the choices they have made by challenging unfairness.

Probably embarrassingly simplistic, I've never discussed feminism with anyone other than my partner.

StarfishEnterprise · 30/06/2013 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

honeytea · 30/06/2013 23:32

I am all for equality but I feel that in the UK at the moment men get a bad deal in the areas of life that really matter. I think the lack of paternity leave is a much more pressing issue than the pay gap between men and women. It also saddens me that in families where the parents are separated it is rare for the care tobe split 50/50 with the mother normally getting the greater share.

I live in Sweden and the parental leave is amazing, you are encouraged to split the time 50/50 and if you do that the government gives you a 1.5k bonus. The vast majority of women go back to work, I have never met a sahm ( childcare is hugely subsidised, child benefit that everyone is entitled to covers full time daycare) kids who's parents have split up spend equal time at each parent's house.

I was brought up by a feminist mum, I went to greenham common and was told war is caused by men, I wasn't allowed a Barbie, I only had one dress it was made of brown corduroy.

I have a baby boy and I feel there is more to fight for with rights for men than women at the moment. I am very grateful that we live in a country where he can grow his hair long and wear any colour he likes and be an involved father and have equal rights over his children which are surely so much more important than how much he gets paid. I would not consider moving back to the UK because I think it would be very hard to grow up o