To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

[Messandmayhem]

This is moving too fast for me to keep up.

I think I'm a feminist. I don't think equality means being treat the same. For a person in a wheelchair to have equal access to a building they need new, different things in place. Ramps, wider doors, lifts, lower light switches and work surfaces. Equality means treating people differently, as individuals to allow equal opportunities. I want to vote, I want the right to work and be paid equally and I want men and women to be treated equally in terms of parenting. I want to live in a world where women aren't being killed by their partners and ex partners. I want to live in a world where rape is taken seriously. I want to be judged for who I am and not how I look. And I think that feminism is about those things.

I have made and still make choices that some feminists might think are anti feminist or whatever, BUT I don't think that prevents me from being a feminist. It just means that we all think about these things differently. And since feminism encourages free thinking and women making their own choices I think that feminists can hold drastically different views on things and still be feminists.

I haven't actually done much reading on feminism and feminist theory, I just think it makes bloody good sense.

[skylerwhite]

souredstones between the contradictions in your posts and the 1950s attitudes, I don't know where to begin....

[tangier]

God this thread is depressing. I cannot believe that in the 21st century there are so many woman who can't see the work still to be done.

As someone said upthread, how many female MPs, judges, CEOs are there?

Yes, we have made great progress in the last 30 years but, until we are truly equal with men, the feminist message needs to be heard.

[Souredstones]

Find a point and start there rather than trying to find a way to insult me.

[Spero]

I love it when my point is proved without me having to do anything

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

IMO all feminism asks for is the same rights as men - the right to equal status in society. The right to carry on at a job after having a baby, the right to be a parent and stay in the same job, the right not to be seen as a second class citizen, a sex object, someone who should just look pretty and be caring.

The right to be recognised as of equal intelligence and capability as a man - regardless of whether we have children or are of child-bearing age or not.

The right to be taken notice of, the same of as any man. It doesn't currently happen - every study on this shows that - contrary to women being known as 'chatty' - males do more of the speaking in debate/meeting type scenarios. Their word tends to carry more weight, they are more likely to be taken notice of. This is true in every place - from every workplace, through mainstream media up to government.

Beautifully illustrated by R4 'Today' programme having a recent debate on breast cancer and it's treatment - with 3 males and no females.

[Souredstones]

Anyway my iPad is dying and I feel sick, I hope this thread is still here tomorrow night so I can read it through. It's been a great discussion.

[Mindyourownbusiness]

YABU - quite an ironic question really from someone who by their own feminist definition is supposed to be a supporter of freedom of lifestyle choice, views etc. and freedom from oppression and dictation for women .

[FreudiansSlipper]

that is what I am saying it is because they are .... men and xyz women having to fight too

it is not simply because they have a penis

[WorraLiberty]

tangier I agree there is mountains of work to be done.

But I just wish the enlightened ones would spend more time getting on with that work, than slagging off other women who are not at the same knowledgeable or mental stage as them.

The expression 'slowly slowly catch monkey' springs to mind.

As has been said by many posters...some of us are just waking up and seeing what's been staring us in the face all our lives.

That's a good thing and should be encouraged...not spoilt by hardcore, impatient twats who want to rule those women's thoughts with an iron fist.

[skylerwhite]

Male personality traits? Most men happier to be 'the breadwinner'?

Men face the same issues as women?

Very depressing.

[SinisterSal]

Yes - just the same. that's all. Even the right to be wrong or rude a bit bloody stupid without it counting against us all.

[Spero]

Exactly. Calling me a 'rape apologist' when I said I would encourage my daughter NOT to go out and get so drunk she didn't know what she was doing does bugger all to help me change my obviously unhelpful and disgusting mind set.

[Souredstones]

Well a lot are, a lot of people are very happy being part of a traditional family, what's so wrong with that?

Yes gay MEN, black MEN, disabled MEN all have equality fights, they're men who have similar issues to women.

Go figure.

Right I must go to bed.

[Spero]

It is my experience that most - but not all - men do not want to be as involved with child care as most - but not all - women.

Being told that my views are 'depressing' or 'annoying' is, I am afraid, highly unlikely to make any dent in them. But will think that my detractor is a twat.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Spero - what did you JUST SAY? If your daughter went out and was raped - would you question her on how much she had drunk??

[WorraLiberty]

Oh god yes

The bloody 'apologist' word springs up everywhere on some threads

But again, it's mainly used by those who are too lazy, pig headed or jaded to actually write a decent and informative post.

Just chuck the word 'apologist' in, include a smiley and the job's a goodun for some people.

[Sparklyboots]

In the case of mat leave, asking how it is fair to.give women a year off is just an example.of.How you can be blind to.structural inequality.

The resources - working hours, skills and material resources - that a parent puts into a child far outweigh the cost of a year or two year mat leave. And the returns for society as a whole are massive - parents produce the consumers and workers.of the future who will both drive the economy and support the state.in taxation and economic output. What is not fair is then expecting one individual to put in the lion's share of that input but for them to be disproportionately penalised in terms of their own financial standing and their future prospects, not to mention both their social.standing and agency in relation to those who chose or are unable to participate in child rearing. The current arrangements may not have solved so much as delegated those problems, but in the interests of equality it is not right to seek the reduction of support to working parents, rather one needs to create a model of business and state relationship that does not either allow the market to dictate prices that can't support equality in the society it is dependent on, nor a state which depends on the production of well adjusted and educated workers but does not fully support that production.

[SinisterSal]

Mindyourownbusiness How is starting a thread on the internet dictating, or oppressing? In the world? I think when it comes to these kind of Whither Feminism? discussions we get a bit caught up on the internet side of things rather than reality.
Saying stuff on the internet - good bad or indifferent - is not the same as being paid less than your male colleague for example or even giving a fiver to the local WA.

[Spero]

Sigh.

Here we go again. To be clear. There is never an excuse for rape. Men who rape should be treated as serious criminals.

But it is very very disturbing to see that the prime idea of a good night out is young women who want to get so drunk they don't know where they are or what they are doing. They don't have anyone looking out for them. They don't value themselves or their own safety. I will teach my daughter NOT to do that.

Do feel free to now follow me over to other threads and call me an apolgiser for rape. This seems to be par for the course.

[skylerwhite]

No, souredstones I'm afraid I disagree: while of course gay men (and women), black men (and women) and disabled men (and women) are all engaged in struggle for equal treatment, they all face different forms and manifestations of prejudice and disadvantage. Just as the structural inequalities weighted against women are distinct in and of themselves.

[SinisterSal]

Apologist is a sharp word that provokes bristles. It has it's place.

[SinisterSal]

It's not par for the course Spero It's not the norm. Though it happens

[Spero]

'Apologist' is lazy and insulting short hand for people who can't debate, who just have a drum and want to bang it as loud as they can.

All you do is make noise and be irritating.