To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

Everyone seems to complain they want to be treated as an individual and then on the other hand says they want to be treated equally. Which do you want because you can't have both.

Yes, you can have both. Equal opportunity isn't the same as equal outcomes. Give everyone equal chances and then they will show you what they can do as an individual. If you make assumptions from the start (you're only going to be given this task because you're female) then that's not individuality, it's lumping people together because of their gender.

Clouds not everyone can engage with every thing - who has the time for a stqrt? Certainly in my 30's I was hustling and working and not really engaging in feminist opinions. That co-incided with my 10 years in banking mind you, so I guess i was fighting the good fight simply by turning up to work with a vagina

I am engaging much more with feminist theory now, but find its so much to do with how I want to parent that it's not difficult to 'live' it more.

'Better working conditions should be standard for everyone. Male or female.'

But when one gang of people have specific concerns, requirements etc shouldn't they get together and campaign for them? Shouldn't the other gang get behind them and support them?

If it was wheelchair users for example. Would it be ok to say There should be better access for all. Or should you say The wheelchair users need x, y and z. Saying everything should be great for everyone is one thing. But identifying a problem, or a particular set of problems, and trying to remedy these specifically is another.

Sorry Souredstones I seem to be picking you up on everything but it's just we seem to be on a bit of a posting tag team

I don't hold women to higher standards because they are women.

I am capable of identifying and being annoyed by knuckleheaded male contributions to 'debate'.

What I find disturbing is when I have attempted to join discussions held by feminists. I get a very clear impression that if you don't 'toe the party line' you are dismissed in quite aggressive language, accused of all kinds of horrible things - even being a man.

I think the debates about feminism/transexaualism are illustrative of this point.

I like people who will argue reasonably and fairly, not simply attempt to shut down debate with squeals of 'you must be a man!'

And sorry, but this is how I have consistently found a lot of feminist debate to be.

I am not asking anyone to agree with me. This is my experience. It does make me wary of identifying as a feminist.

I'm always irritated when women say they aren't feminists. Especially when they are enjoying the freedoms that previous feminists got them (which is 9/10 the case). But I've learnt to live with it. Don't call yourself a feminist if you like. Chances are you're living like one. If it walks like a duck .....

Feminism isn't about getting more than men or dominating men. It's about not accepting poor treatment or limited choices because we're women.

We are equal to men. Men are equal to women. In fact differences between genders are greatly exaggerated. Just as differences between "races" are. (There's just one human race).

I'm yet to see someone bang on the door of number ten and hand back their right to vote because feminism isn't for them.

Zynia, I was a single parent for four years, but what's that got to do with anything? at all your assumptions. I'm capable of thinking outside my own circumstances, thanks.

I can see that there are women more vulnerable than me, but then there are plenty of men in the world that are more vulnerable than me too.

I think you are confusing equality with uniformity, souredstones. There is a difference.

Spero I didn't mean to trivialise, I meant to post fast because the thread is moving fast and was perhaps too flippant - apologies.

Zynia41 yes, it is around sex and reproduction that the issues present. Except it's not just that is it? It has nothing to do with pink/blue balloons being brought into the maternity ward, or more boys than girls doing Maths & Science at school with all the implications of that. Those are the things that society fosters, imo.

So what, you were a single mother for four years and either 1) the financial sacrifices of parenting were equal and if so GOOD, that is as a result of previous feminists, or 2) you bore the brunt of the sacrifices for parenting, financial, hit to your career, your time, your freedom - and yet you thought, this is FINE

I don't think you have any coherent philosophy to explain why you are NOT a feminist. Liking pink doesn't mean that you can't be a feminist.

SinisterSal - thanks, I don't think it is a trivial point. I think it explains why a lot of women don't want to say they are feminist.

I appreciate why there is anger and robust expression of certain points. But I resent being told that if I hold certain views I must be a man.

Presumably anyone who isn't a feminist won't be taking advantage of everything feminists have enabled us to do, such as voting, moving towards equal pay, being allowed to get a degree, a choice of job, not being male property etc.

I see that comment made a lot and often wonder if black folks should all label themselves accordingly because of the struggles faced by blacks throughout history?

Personally I think people should be able to just not give a shit and get on with their lives without being made to feel 'honoured' or like they owe a lifelong debt to those who stood before them.

I've learnt a lot about feminism from Mumsnet and I now see inequality where I hadn't seen it before. I guess I just accepted things because they'd always been that way.

Now I'm much better at spotting (and arguing!) about these things in RL. My DH and my 3 sons also now see inequality where they wouldn't have done before...thanks to Mumsnet and I as the chair of governors at a very large primary school have often raised issues along those lines that again - nobody had identified as inequality.

So for that, I'll always be grateful.

But I've also been left open mouthed and shocked at times by the treatment of some female posters on here...by self proclaimed feminists.

Over the years I've seen people virtually bullied because they've chosen to remove their own pubic hair/shave their armpits. I've seen them jumped on from a great height because they choose to wear make-up every single day. I've seen their DP's called vile names because they're 'automatically in the wrong'...when women have done/said the same thing and been automatically in the right.

And as for the stupid immature word 'menz'. Well that's often used by women to insult other women who feminists disagree with.

It only takes a few bad apples to tip over a massive apple cart I'm afraid.

It's often those sort of people that women don't want to be identified with...and sadly declaring you're a feminist (or any other 'ist') my lead strangers to believe you're like them.

You will not be surprised to know I agree with Worra

technotropic I think you'll find that African-Americans (and many Americans more generally) have a particular regard for people like Frederick Douglass and Martin Luther King.

Not confusing equality with uniformity at all

Better wheelchair access puts the wheelchair user into the same group as their peers though. If a fully able bodied person can get into a room but the wheelchair user can't then they aren't being treated fairly, level the playing field by putting the access in and fab, great stuff.

With workplace equality and feminism though the balance is tipping too far and I say this as a pregnant woman who has been a single working parent. It's now almost impossible to sack a poor employee, especially in the public sector where they take equality very very seriously.

You're talking to a person who doesn't agree with unions though.

I'll clarify this by saying, if a group shouts too loudly, stomps their feet too hard and demands too much they can end up waking away with nothing rather than the something they had at the beginning.

I too have had my eyes opened by lots of thoughtful debate and new perspectives.

I have also been pissed off and angered by the dismissive, stupid and aggressive positions adopted by some.

They do the cause enormous harm.

Cross posted with worra whose second half of her post more or less is a better way of saying what I wanted to in my last paragraph

'With workplace equality and feminism though the balance is tipping too far'

'You're talking to a person who doesn't agree with unions though.'

Riiiighttt.......

Maybe have a look at , souredstones and start to educate yourself a bit

skyler

Of course that's true but it is also possible to be black, not regard yourself as a black rights activist and simply live as an equal amongst white men/women. You can enjoy all the rights as white folks without someone reminding you about the work MLK did.

..."with workplace equality and feminism the balance is tipping too far..."

what with all these women disproportionately dominating the boardrooms, the government, these female captains of industry, the excessive wages in the hands of women.

yup.

How can EQUALITY tip the balance too far? Don't you see that that's paradoxical?

I'm educated enough to know how much of industry the unions ruined and how self serving they are.

But that's not for this thread

It's true Spero and I know a few bad apples shouldn't spoil the whole cart but they do. Especially in terms of not wanting to be identified with bullies.

Some women have been dictated to all their lives by men...and just when they start to see the light, they're often dictated to by hardcore feminists.

Just like the men in those women's lives, they think they know best and go all out to make them feel like utter shit for not making the same choices/holding the same views.

It's the same with breast feeders/formula feeders

You'll get some very knowledgeable, supportive people who help others and empathise with them.

Then you'll get the iron fist dictators that spoil it for the rest and make women feel like total shit.

Hasn't it been proven that women who make it to the top of industry have a large number of male personality traits and raised testosterone levels compared with the normal female population

That's interesting worra, because I feel the same as you. MN has made me so aware of inequalities everywhere now, that the scales have fallen from my eyes and I see it everywhere now. I too wear make up every day. I have long hair, stay slim and wear nice clothes. I shave too- unashamedly - legs, armpits, bikini line, but I'm interested to read the threads that tell me (reasons why I may) do it. Sometimes, some self awareness is useful.

I don't see feminism as a dress code, or a style code I see it as a way to redress the imbalance.