To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

PromQueen
This isn?t an argument that is going to have a winner as there is nothing to win. It?s just a discussion where we?ve been exchanging lots of different POV?s.

I don?t see women?s inequality as a myth at all. I see it but don?t accept that it is the key attribute to why women are under-represented. It may be part of the reason in some cases but not all because as you rightly say, there are always exceptions. My bet is that many men/women read about inequalities and compare what they read with their experiences. If it agrees then they will accept what they read. If not then they won?t. Thus when you say that a woman is not taken seriously at work because of XYZ and a woman does not identify with this then what is she supposed to think?
You may have a more balanced view on this but other feminists/groups do not. I have read a number of articles over the years saying things like, ?the lack of women MP?s/CEO?s/managers is unacceptable? and how quotas should be enforced, companies should be named/shamed etc. How can we honestly conclude that 50/50 divisions are unacceptable and casually assert that it?s down to discrimination across the board? The truth is you cannot. It may apply to some companies but certainly not all and that?s the problem. You simply cannot paint with such a broad brush and then expect everybody to concur.

Promqueen, the problem I have is that I see awful discrimination against other groups - black men, disabled people etc, etc, - and I no longer feel comfortable focusing on discrimination against women.

So many other injustices and inequalities. I can't possibly say as an educated white middle class woman that I suffer anything like the discrimination faced by a black teenage boy.

Radical, well, hysterical and fanatical feminists are such a deterrent, one is not inclined to be likened to anything so fundamentally unreasonable [terrified].

The types that hate men/anything masculine with absolute passion and rant and rave given the slightest opportunity.

I am not a feminist because the above.

It's not because someone suffers more than you that your suffering is irrelevant. It's like saying: well women in Egypt are suffering female genital mutilation, therefore the gender pay gap in Britain is irrelevant and we shouldn't be addressing it.

For me feminism is part of an inclusive movement which strives towards equality for everyone, regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, socio-economic background or country of origin.

Jaysus, PromQueen, I salute you, I really do.

Sigmund Yes, society at the top is unequal, but that really doesn't trouble me, I don't see it at my level. It will trouble me when I suffer for it.

That's a pretty good encapsulation of the I'm All Right Jack style of selfishness... Society at the bottom is unequal as well, by the way...

What's your discipline, PromQueen?

I am interested in what you say about not wanting to be a CEO Exotic. That's fine, I assume nobody is pressuring you to take the reins at BP?

Luckily they are not head hunting me! I wouldn't do it for any money if they were.

I don't understand the following-or even where I gave that impression.

Should I be discouraged? Would you disapprove? If so, why? It makes no difference to you. You still get to have your choice, why I can't I have mine? That's what feminism is trying to achieve

No you shouldn't be discouraged. No I wouldn't disapprove.(negates the next parts). Yes, of course you should get your choice.

Actually, I don't really mind if you don't want to identify as feminist. No problem. But why do you feel the need to make it harder for me to make the choices I want to make?

I don't want to identify as a feminist because I have specifically been told, on feminists threads, that feminism is not about choice. It is all about choice as far as I am concerned-and if you want to be head of BP go for it-but equally if you want to to be a TA to fit in with school hours then go for it.

Genuine question. Do you see my desire for equality (as defined by me) as a threat to your choices?

Genuine answer-completely mystified as to why it could possibly be a threat to my choices -other that you think I should want the same.

Promqueen - you are on fire today

Well said.

I agree with you. I am friends with the most lovely person, an anarcho -feminist. Some people have a scared look on their face when I mention it. Nothing scary about said friend, she is a very nice woman.

PromQueen

I will genuinely worry about the number of female CEO's etc when there is a similar push to encourage women into all other sectors, not just parliament and FTSE100 companies.

I will also worry about under-representation when someone carries out a definitive survey to exhaust all avenues to why there are fewer women in these jobs. Till then I will continue to assume that sexism/oppression is a factor but one where it is nigh-on impossible to quantify in any meaningful sense.

With regard to publishing salaries it really is a bad thing to do for many people, for obvious reasons. I agree that it could help with male/female differentials but would cause more trouble than it's worth. I have seen first hand the trouble between two people of the same sex who think they are both worth the same i.e. same job/age/experience, but one has a higher opinion of their productivity or other attributes. Often there is a reason why people of the same sex get paid different salaries and sadly people are rarely honest/accurate with self appraisal. You only have to watch an episode of the Apprentice to see an extreme of this.

I think publishing salaries is fine. Then, if anyone has a bone to pick on why they are doing the same job/hours/skills/title etc, but get paid less, there can be an open discussion about it. Also about paygaps in different sectors and so on. Managers would have to adhere to decent regulation and should be able to openly defend their positions. Nothing wrong with that. They publish salaries in Norway.
It has been addressed by some councils in the UK too, think it was Birmingham or Coventry who had to backdate pay for female cleaners. For many years female and male cleaners had been paid differently solely because of gender. I have no idea why this ever was considered ok, but it was.
Just wanted to come back to Techno's question why women sort of fell by the wayside when it came to power in society ( though large swathes of the male population did too.) It's a ot of speculation of course, but I think that if you bear a child every 2 years, you are pretty much bogged down with that and working around the house etc, so not much spare energy to want to conquer the world. Humans seem to be fairly territorial and fighting over resources carries on today so not difficult to see how conflicts may have arisen.
For me feminism is not about dress sense or how you coiff your bodyhair, but about having the freedom to learn, work and vote. In so many parts of the world this is denied many people, and especially girls (I recommend reading A Bookseller in Kabul, by Asne Seierstad)

How is it a circular argument to say we should be on the alert to combat discrimination against anyone for any reason which is not related to their ability to do the job? Why should I be predominantly worried about women? When we are losing a large proportion of an entire generation to apathy and despair?

And surely there have to be gradations of what we deem worthy or interest and energy - when British school girls are being taken abroad to have their genitals mutilated, I am more worried by that than the fact some rad fems feel angry at being asked to include post operative transsexuals at their meetings.

Promqueen - you repeatedly say that Feminists are held to a higher standard of behaviour and debate. I don't agree. I have been asking for minimum standards and I expect the same of any group. I don't target feminists particularly but I am afraid to say they are frequent offenders on the mindless rebuttal front I.e. if you don't like what someone is saying, just call them an apologist for something and refuse to engage further.

Of course other groups do it. But interestingly, I have never been bullied and stalked by representatives of any other group I have had a run in with.

Maybe I was just unlucky. Certainly this thread has been much better than many others.

'Promqueen - you repeatedly say that Feminists are held to a higher standard of behaviour and debate. I don't agree. I have been asking for minimum standards and I expect the same of any group. '

I agree Spero, I've never asked for anything other than a civil, intelligent debate without personal attacks in any discussion. Feminist, Environmentalist, Educational...wherever. It is a phrase that became popular on the FWR boards for a while, along with not being here to educate people on the basic stuff.
I think PromQueen has done a fantastic job here, and the thread has made me think again about why so many say they are not feminists, especially when they live like one.
But also about the original title, and why the OP was annoyed and what can be done to change the image of feminism in the rejecters' minds. Or if, indeed, anyone wants to bother with rebranding and whether the detractors should just be left to grumble in the wake.