To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

Hi
I realise I am late to todays party on here!

Some points on todays debates.

Personally, I think, fwiw, that probably women are on the whole brighter than men! But this could be because schools are mainly staffed by women, which puts some boys off.
Also, the school ciriculum is very structered, which again doesnt suit some boys.

I am all for same pay, for exact same jobs. And for it to be open and above board.
I think it was techno who was against this. Maybe I am naive and ignorant on this point, but I cant see the problems.

Reasons why I dont think there are that many women in top jobs.
1.Yes, in part, men dont want them there, so my guess is sometimes promote men, when the woman may have been the better candidate.

1. A lot of women dont want to be, which I think is an area that is vastly underestimated by feminists.

3.A lot of women dont have the guts. Sorry, but runnings comments last night rather emphasied that one.

1. Presenteeism. Another underestimated one by the feminists.

Quite frankly, until women are prepared to do international travel at the drop of a hat, work till 10pm some nights if necessary, willing to do lots of overtime, willing to do evening networking etc - all things that some men are quite eager to do, then it is hardly surprising that women are not at the top.

1. Presenteeism - yes I know this is the same answer as no. 4! But this time, presenteeism as in working till 68 if necessary,or whatever it is, just like the men.

Sorry Promqueen, you must be mixing me up with someone else as I am neither angry nor plerplexed as to why you wish to identify as a feminist.

My contributions have been to justify why I don't wish to so identify. And I hope it continues to give pause to the more sensible feminsts such as yourself as to why I feel that why and why a number of others have agreed with me.

There is sadly something quite rotten in the mainstream feminist discourse and It is putting a lot of us off.

Playing misery top trumps is of course unhelpful. But I don't think attempting a proportionate response to human suffering inevitably falls into that trap although of course it may.

And I do find much of what I read on feminist sites mind boggling banal, but it gets people so worked up. Got into a debate last week about feminists arguing over whether or not the word 'lame' was ever appropriate to mean 'not cool' and in the course of that argument I was linked to a blog where the female author felt 'oppressed' if other people wore glasses if they didn't need to.

We really have disappeared down the rabbit hole if this kind of drivel is argued alongside other issues, for eg asking what we do about culturally instituted violence against women, such as FGM.

Promqueen, please come and join me on a dog thread sometimes, it will put the language you see used against feminists in another perspective...

Presenteeism is a strange word but I doubt whether many men want it either. It takes a quite unusual person. The majority want to work to live and it means living to work. The demands of work come first. I wouldn't want it and I couldn't possibly have children with a man who wanted to be at the top.
I had a family calendar and if he was due home at 7pm so that I could go out I expected him home at 7pm. His evenings were doing the bedtime routine when they were small- not networking -and travel at the drop of a hat wasn't a possibility.
I wouldn't want any of it. It isn't not having guts- it is the fact it doesn't give me the life I want. Lots of money doesn't compensate for what you miss.

Sorry, but you are stuck with being 'sensible' unless and until you accuse me of victim blaming or suggest I am an apologist for FGM.

Hopefully your more excitable sethren will take your example of actually debating without insulting. It is a shame if people are disengaging for reasons which have nothing to do with the ideology.

The guts comment was predominately about what was discussed last night and early this morning,about women being afraid to start up companies in a male dominated industry apparently.
Or joining a male dominated industry
Or staying in a male dominated industry.
Stickability in general it seems.

Spero, I have heard about the problem in dogs, but never seen it.
All seems sensible whenever I have ventured over there!

Hopefully the dogs lot have calmed down a bit since I was last there, or spontaneously combusted. Such a lot of energy!

I think most - but not all - women have other distractions in their lives and most - but not all - are not particularly interested in an all consuming job.

Rather more men - but not all - have less interest in children and child care.

Simon Baron Cohen writes interesting stuff about the male/female brain.

I find it interesting that when some American professor commented that there weren't many women in the harder sciences as women were generally less interested/suited tothat field he was utterly pilloried and forced out of his job.

I think he was stating a truth. The fact that most - but not all - physicists are men suggests to me that in 2013 this is not because women are routinely discriminated against but that fewer women are interested in or have aptitude to pursue this career.

Certainly, a definitive survey that exhausts all avenues about gender inequality would be very helpful.

LOL yes of course. In all seriousness though, I meant an unbiased survey to see what factors contribute to the imbalance. If it's all down to sexism then fine but I don't think it's good enough to simply guess.

TBH I'm not particularly interested in bin men but neither am I particularly interested in CEO's or politicians. I already have a disdain for politicians so will just have equal disdain for female ones who will be as corrupt and useless as the men. As for CEO?s I have no interest in them either, given they hardly have an effect on the lives of the general public.

I have no time for MRA's either but they do have a point about the lower end of the job market. Personally I would rather see more female representation at grass roots level than at the top where no-one really connects with the ultra privileged. This isn't an attempt to close off the debate but something I'd rather see than a few at the top.

Unfortunately becoming a manager in a company at the lower end of the scale seems too trifling to be an issue. Yet there are many more positions of seniority than at the top. These are not unachievable standards but real possibilities and potentially more attractive to more women than the few who may/may not be willing to scrabble to the heady heights of a greasy pole.

Kim147

Good article.

Do you not think that public attitudes might change a lot quicker if more women were encouraged to do these kinds of jobs, instead of focussing mainly on CEO and MP positions?

Sadly these women will take the brunt of the sexism at first but steadily it would change (like other professions where there is a more equal split).

Baron Cohen says that men can have female brains and women can have male brains - I agree the terms can be limiting and possibly self fulfilling but one of the most interesting things I find about some feminists is that they cannot ever admit to sex specific differences, even down to agreeing that men are generally bigger and stronger than women.

I don't pretend discrimination no longer exists and can only speak with authority about my own experience - I graduated in 1993 and can say very clearly that I never felt I experienced discrimination because I was a woman and only to limited extent because I was disabled. I have ended up in the female ghetto of the law but I was offered training in more 'manly' fields so I could have ended up there if I wanted to.

S I do think we have made enormous strides. Therefore I do think the focus can shift to more humanist issues of unacceptable discrimination generally. I do think there is a risk that feminism is going to end up a very white, middle class group in this country as it simply will not be speaking to and for other groups of women.

Didn't Cordelia Fine go on to research that there is no difference between male and female brains?