To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

The I'm Not A Feminists see the same world as the Feminists, but its like one group is using a heat seeking camera and the other is using an ordinary one: both groups are looking at exactly the same thing but the picture is completely different.

No, just cameras with different lenses. Neither is more sensitive or special than another, clearly.

People just see the world from different POV's. That does't mean discussions can't be had. If you don't want to carry on then fine but I'm sure many others will as it's been quite interesting IMHO.

But perhaps that's why women are still, in your eyes, at a disadvantage? If you're saying that women shy away from the challenge of entering a male dominated environment then maybe there's your answer. If you truly believe (as a feminist) that women generally do not have the tenacity then is this not why we live in an imbalanced society. Perhaps men therefore deserve to hold the dominant position? Certainly millions of years of dominance could suggest that this is the 'natural' order, whether we think it morally right or not?

Of course I'm in the INAF camp and don't think for one minute that women don't have the tenacity to mix it with men. I think women can do what they like and get where they want on merit and hard slog.

PromQueen I have seen this discussion take place many a time. I've enjoyed reading your posts and I salute your tenacity and patience.

perhaps one of the reasons is that the soft jobs are less well paid?

I'm done with this 'debate' now I think. I've always felt that feminism is centered around one phrase, 'It's not FAIR'. Nothing I have read over the past day has changed my view. Feminists portray women as victims of the patriarchy, victims of men, incapable brainwashed idiots who wander around with their eyes shut. I find that quite insulting.

Truth is, a great many women actually LIKE their lives, and are rather fed up with being told that they shouldn't, that they're oppressed, that they should work in the sciences, as CEO's, as some high power something or other. A lot of women, like me, just wanted to nuture their babies and be a mum, and I feel that I'm castigated for it, and swept along with a feminist movement (as it changes society) unasked. I'm sick of being told that if I'm not for feminism, I'm against it.

Nobody is stopping you doing anything, only your own head. And, actually, I'd wager that most women agree with me.

Anyway, laters.

I'll pop back later PromQueen. To answer your last comment 'Where we part ways is that I think feminism will help us make progress with these issues, and you seem to think its holding society back?'

I don't think feminism is holding society back. I think it overestimates the amount of women who want a successful career (as a CEO for eg). It requires a sacrifice that most women (IMO) would baulk at (what about the successful career women who give up their career's completely when they have children?). I also think that it pays no heed to the women who like things just as they are, and enjoy their power over men. Yes, society at the top is unequal, but that really doesn't trouble me, I don't see it at my level. It will trouble me when I suffer for it.

The thread has massively moved on since I last contributed, so sorry if this is now a bit off topic, but one post caught my eye, saying that feminism was about securing 50% of jobs for women.

I find that really odd. I want my surgeon, my fire fighter, my politician, my CEO etc to be the best person for the job, not someone shoe horned into a role on the basis that they do or do not have a penis.

If that really is what feminism is about then I definitely wish to dissociate from it.

I would agree Spero- saying that you must make places for women is not what you want- they need to be the best person. Having said that I think there are outdated work practices that disadvantage women and have no place in 21st century.
I think very few people want the top jobs- they cause marriages to break up. Who wants to be an MP living in London and Northumbria and trying to get to their child's school play(father or mother)?
It is children who change lives - they actually need very little BUT they do need time, and lots of time- not the dreaded 'quality time' of at least one parent. Women often want to be the one to do it. I am not going to fly off to Brussels for a meeting if it is my child's birthday- no way- therefore I won't get a top job.

I also get really fed up with the attitude that men get jobs when my perfectly fit and able graduate son,with a good class of degree has taken 13months to secure his first job.

Just going back a bit.

yams - 80% of the worlds farmers are women. They are not doing it "alongside their men". They aren't choosing not to do it. They are doing it.

I'm a SAHM who doesn't want to be CEO of anything and I'm a feminist.

Women are not a homogenous group. We don't need to hold the same beliefs or ideas and feminism is not forcing this.

It's not about telling women how to live. It's ensuring women are able to live how they want to and not being restricted or dismissed based on gender.

Of course men face problems and difficulties too. I would never belittle those. I think gender stereotypes damage and restrict everyone.

There are extreme views held by some in all groups. You can't look at an Islamic terrorist and claim you know and reject all Muslims. You should not find a frankly bizarre idea that women will stop nurturing their sons to force a matriarchy in order to diminish men and claim that view is representative of feminism.

There are indeed female chauvinists. And I have no time for them. But IMHO they are not feminists. Feminism is equality.

Just because a woman decides they don't want to pursue a high powered career for themselves does not give them license to say all women are inherently lazy and want cushy jobs and that is why they have not progressed! Yes not all women want the pressure of an extreme career eg CEO. But don't deny those who do the chance to compete for those jobs vs men , on a level playing field! But denying the fact that the playing field is currently NOT level and trying to explain it by speaking for ALL women and saying they'd rather be sahms in the kitchen, is horribly misogynistic.

Thanks, PromQueenWithin, my thoughts exactly. I work in a male-dominated environment and no, there isn't a level playing field. Men willing to put in the long hours usually have wives at home to pick up the pieces. Women willing to put in the long hours struggle because their husbands do not do the 'wife's work' to the same degree. So they are burdened with more responsibilities, more guilt etc. There are exceptions: two highflying friends of mine have SAH hubbies, so it can be done.

Also, there are many ways of subtly excluding people in the workplace. I've been in situations where the men would just talk over the women and only hold eye contact with the other men present. The women were made to feel invisible and frozen out. The men would get projects together after work in the pub, with the women not invited etc. I remember one woman who was 'allowed in'. She was not the most competent (far from it in fact!) but she was pretty, dressed provocatively, and was up for partying. She had affairs with more than one colleague and ended up not being taken seriously at her job. She has left now.

I want the best person for the job. Full stop. Yes, a woman is less likely to be an effective fire fighter because she is less likely to be strong enough to carry an unconscious adult down a ladder. But there are women out there who are strong and capable so if they want to be firefighters then of course they should.

I would rather focus on beating discrimination on unreasonable and bigoted grounds than pushing a woman into a role because she is a woman.

Positive discrimination often does little more than provide fuel for bigots. If we all focused on allowing people to be what they wanted to be and what they have the talents to achieve, regardless of race or gender the world would truly be a better place.

Sadly, I think feminism is disappearing up its own arse and becoming more and more tedious debate about first world problems.

MorrisZap thanks for clarifying that for me! I thought I was a feminist. But then this woman made me doubt myself.

I would like men and women to need exactly the same levels of tenacity to make it in the same job. Not easier conditions for women, the same opportunities for men and women. And currently, women need more tenacity (I think) to get to the rewards men can reach, the barriers the face are higher than those that men face.

But everyone faces obstacles and challenges. It really is all relative and in the present day there are industries where women do not face any barriers at all. The trouble is it?s all painted with a broad brush (with feminism) when in reality the workplace is incredibly diverse. I sit in meetings where women are not overlooked, ignored, are genuinely valued and respected. Try telling my colleagues that they face greater challenges and they will laugh at you. In other industries it may be different. It?s not black/white and I can imagine men face challenges if they choose to work in female dominated fields.