to find it really irritating when people who earn a lot say...

[Doodledumdums]

...But I work really hard for the money I get.

Sorry, totally unimportant, but it really irritates me!

I have a few friends who earn quite a lot of money, and I don't begrudge them this at all, but I just find it really insulting when they say 'But I do work really hard for it.' I also work hard! I feel like it implies that I don't! Okay, I am on maternity leave at the moment, so am not actually at work, (although i'd say that to some extent, looking after a baby is harder than my actual job anyway!) but when I am working, I am usually in the office by 8am, and often don't leave until 7pm, and I earn literally a fraction of what some of my friends earn. That is fine, I knew that when I got in to my chosen industry, but it doesn't mean that I don't work as hard as they do or deserve more!

They don't need to be defensive about it at all! It is totally fine that they earn what they do, I just don't understand why they can't be a bit more gracious about it and say something like 'Yes, I am lucky that I have a job I love which pays well.'

Oh I don't know, maybe I am being unreasonable and ultra-sensitive. I am sure they don't mean to imply that I don't work hard, but it just feels like that sometimes. Totally a first world issue!

P.S- I have self esteem and anxiety issues...which is possibly why I find this upsetting!

Yes it angers me that DC and the like accuse WC families or rather imply they don't work hard enough.

I cannot fathom how anyone can say anything other about carers,shop workers are worked to the bone and get paid little for it.

I've never heard anybody say or imply that carers don't work hard enough. As for shop work, I did it for years and found it relatively easy. I've met lots of fantastic retail staff, and equally I've met lots of appalling stuck up arseholes who think they're doing you a favour just by allowing you into their shop, or who use their time to chat to their mates and dissect their antics from the night before like I used to do

Arisbottle
No, I don't think that or mean that.

I think that people can assume that inherited wealth means you have no understanding of the difficulties in life and therefore lack empathy or understanding of struggle. As in the scenario I described when a couple of people regularly stuck a dismisive 'it's alright for you' into converstions with me.

I don't give a shit what people have or don't if they are my friends and the couple of people with inherited wealth who are perfectly nice.
Iwas simply describing why someone might respond defensively to the 'out of touch ergo selfish shit' thing that is a common enough stereotype.

potatoprints - I am not saying that luck is the only factor, but it is always ONE of the factors involved in how things turn out.

I'd agree that saying that people who have good outcomes have good luck, and those who have bad outcomes have bad luck, is just as much an oversimplification as saying that everything is down to your choices and hard work with no aspect of luck involved.

YY to Pag's point about the Apprentice bearing no relation to the City at all.

Don't imagine that working in the City is exciting all the time. TV programmes and films paint a glamorous picture because the reality would be very dull. It can also be repetitive and exhausting. It pays well but emails never stop and deadlines shorten with every project. My DH had a four day week this week due to a day off. He still worked about 60 hours in the days he was in the office. He is still checking his blackberry and thinking about everything that must be done this week. He is exhausted.

Every outcome is both a combination of your choices and circumstances out of your control.

Maybe I should say that, rather than "luck".

I don't find that particularly irritating. But it is annoying when people go on about being miserable and stressed in their very well paid jobs but just carry on. And having a really good job with a great salary isn't usually down to luck. IMHO.

Every outcome is both a combination of your choices and circumstances out of your control

Totally agree with this - to suggest otherwise is incredibly arrogant and narrow minded.

I agree that it is a combination of luck and hard work. I earn an ok wage (teacher), but it was both luck and graft that got me to the position I am in.

Luck:

• being born in UK with free education and in an area with fantastic schools
• intelligence
• parents that highly valued education and pushed all their DC
• applying for PGCE in the final year that my subject was a shortage subject, which meant I got the highest bursary as I couldn't afford the training otherwise
• being selected for the PGCE as one of 20 out of 200 applicants. I doubt I was ''better" than 180 others, or had worked harder, I managed to 'click' with the interviewers. Again, luck involved as the main lady was replaced with another by the time the course started who actively disliked me.

Etc. etc.

Hard graft has enabled me to progress quickly with promotions. My old HoD gave me the advice "always work at the next level beyond your current position, if you want to progress", which has served me well.

I have once used the phrase 'I work hard for it'. We were interviewing for a new HoD. At the time I was second in dept and was introduced to the candidates. One lady sneeringly said "You're very young to be a second. I don't agree with young people being promoted quickly." My response was defensive as she made it sound that it was pure luck and I didn't deserve my position (she'd judged me in 3 seconds purely based on my age).

So to summarise, people should not deny that luck (good or bad) did not play a part in their situation, however, hard graft (or lack of it) also is involved.

Or what Trills said, in rather more concise manner than me.

I think the phrase 'I work hard for it' is practically always defensive. Either because someone is saying you're lucky with no acknowledgment that part of your good salary is luck but there is also hard work and specific choices made at school/uni etc. Or because you feel guilty about how much you earn in comparison to some other people because society dictates the worth of some occupations versus others.

I think some people are more willing to take risks and are more condident about leading people and have more stress.

I plod in life but would rather have time to myself and work part time for rubbish money and leave the job at work. good luck to people

I had a relative say this to me recently (and yes they were bragging). They know I'm carer for DS and it has been incredibly hard and stressful doing what I have to do. It was unbelievably arrogant of them as there was the implication that this person was somehow better.

Hard work isn't always measured in monetary terms and anyone who thinks it is, is generally an arsehole.

I don't begrudge anyone with a decent salary but i do resent the implication that i am somehow less worthy than them due to not earning a higher salary ? however this attitude rarely occurs with the other high earners that we know.

When researchers have looked into this and measured stress and hard work carefully, they'd come to the conclusion that it's the people either at the bottom of the heap who have the worst deal, or in one or two studies I've seen, the people in the middle - who have to implement and defend decisions made by the big bosses and soak up any pissed off-ness from the people at the bottom of the work heirarchy.

The more control you have over your life and your working life, the happier and less stressed you are. If you have the ability to make choices, you are happier and less stressed - even if you choose something that is intrinisically stressful - than someone who just has to soak it up.

So carers, for instance, have it really bad. Either paid - in which case your bosses might tell you you only have 15 minutes to give an elderly person their tea, or unpaid caring for a relative, in which case you have to deal with a load of stuff that you can't control.

That's far more stressful than a company director. Who has a lot of support, a lot of minions to do stuff for them, whether it's a business task or picking up their dry cleaning. They can afford a cleaner at home so don't have to come back after a long shift on their feet to be confronted with all the housework. It is harder to be the person being made redundant than the person making them redundant. It's quite hard to be the person delivering the message - not as hard as being the victim, but harder than the chief exec who often doesn't know the victim or have to deal with them face-to-face.

It's a combination of luck and hard work. I agree with you, OP. It's very telling when posters, for example Rowtunda in the first page, says things like "I worked hard - I went to university for 6 years" etc, but the point is, they had the opportunity to do that. Some people I knew growing up were just expected to get full time jobs at 16, their parents wouldn't support their education any more.

Those people might work extremely hard, but they are much less likely to earn as much - luck plays a HUGE part in it.

I was the first person in my family to go to university, and now I do earn a bit more than most of them, but that is not because I am smarter, or more hard working, or somehow a better person, that is purely because I happened to be born with parents who were willing to pay for my upkeep while I did my A-Levels, and were compliant with me going to university so I could apply for enough student finance, etc. I could have just as easily been born to parents who sold me to the circus aged 5!

Most people just don't realise how lucky they are, IMO.

YANBU to be annoyed OP, it gets my back up a bit when people who earn more to me say that when I work as hard a they do for much less. But that was my choice, my career would always pay less then theirs and they do work hard, it's a defensive thing on both sides most of the time.

It is ironic though that you mention in your post that they are being defensive to say that because equally you are being defensive in thinking they are putting you down and feeling annoyed.

Seems the only people that may be not affected by hearing it on either side are those who don't work hard, for little or a lot.

On another tangent though, though i work as hard as my friends for much less I love my choice in career and job while they all hate theirs. I often see in my social circle that those who are less paid actually love their jobs while those who are paid a lot more, don't. So for me personally, it offsets the 'working hard' defence.

IME the people who say "but I work hard for the money I get" are the prople who are stressed out and and don't like their job. The people who say "Yes, I am lucky" are pretty contented with what they do.

I've read most of this, but not all, so apologies if this has already been said.

There is more than one type of hard work, and it's not just about hard work anyway. It's about the value that each worker has.

A shop worker may physically work harder in a day than a well paid office worker, but there are countless people that could do the shop job. There may only be a few people that are capable of doing the office job well, therefore the office worker has a higher value than the shop worker.

I also think the work it has taken to get into a well paid position has to be taken into account. One person may have made the choice to enjoy their younger years by not working particularly hard, another may have chosen to study and build up their experience. I don't think it's fair to dismiss the latter persons hard work by calling it luck. And I don't see why someone hears the phrase 'I work hard for what I've got' and then makes it about themselves. If someone says it, (although its not something I've ever heard) they are talking about themselves. Take it as it was intended without making it all about you.

I earn a good salary and would never it bring it up. Sometimes however people say I am lucky. Then i do get defensive. I would not say "but i work hard" but i might point out that I have worked since i was 13 and even when i was in full time study i have always had two jobs working over 60 hours per week plus my study. So I feel that I have created my opportunities and earned the right to earn what I do.

That being said I would never be rude and say to my friends I earn a lot, or that they don't work hard and they would not say I am lucky.

Out of every thousand people who work equally as hard, approximately six will 'make it'.

If everyone of them 'made it' though hard work alone, capitalist society would collapse, as it relies on there being more at the bottom than at the top.

edam Some of your broad generalisations about company directors (eg: they have less stress because they have minions around them and a cleaner at home) are along the lines of "well its alright for them" "they have an easy life" judgement.

It really isnt as simple as making a correlation between seniority, bigger wage packet and not having the same levels of stress. Company directors have enormous amounts of stress on their shoulders, they have the responsibility of delivering shareholder value, keeping people employed, delivering increasing profit levels, knowing what is actually going on at all levels of their organisation, notwithstanding their own professional reputation (not all executives should be tarred with the same brush, the "bash the bankers", many do a brilliant job!) - hence they do get a bigger salary which enables them to employ a cleaner etc!

Its a different type of stress, but its all still stress. Hey look a David Cameron (no, I am NOT a fan) a monied man, privileged, with a cleaner and minions, but he had a young disabled son, who as we know died last year. Even having the privileges, everything money can buy, he lost that boy and no money will bring his son back. God alone knows how Cameron carried on shouldering that sort of grief with the eyes of the country on him and being slagged off as a rubbish PM. Whatever I think of his method of running this country, my heart did go out to him.

Yes, There are millions of people without the facilities that money can buy and they do have the stress of disability, deprivation etc - my point is that stress cannot be quantified, minimised or eradicated simply by throwing money at it. Probably the stress just moves to a different part of the person's life!

Also research shows that people handle stress differently (perceptions, personality type and environment plus availability of support networks all play a part). Senior directors are in their job because they have a stronger stomach than most for handling stress. But they are often Type A people (highly competitive) which can bring about stress. So stress factors cant all be 'explained away' by money!

Op its about perception. You are perceiving their saying I work really hard for my money as them been defensive. When in actual fact they probably do work really hard for their cash and thats the be all and end all. That doesn't mean they think you don't. You chose your field, they choose theirs and as a result they have more disposable income to have the nice holidays that you comment on. It sounds like you are either overly sensitive or maybe feel insecure about your own earnings. With this in mind, I think YABVU.

On a different note why anyone wants to discuss their earnings with others or want to know what others earn is beyond me.

no, no, daisy, you misunderstand. There is good evidence from research that senior execs have less stress than the people at the bottom of the heap because they have far more control over their lives - they get to make decisions, rather than have decisions made for them. That doesn't mean they have NO stress, of course they do. But less, on average, than people at the bottom.

Contrast a director who has to make a difficult decision with someone on benefits who has their benefits stopped - whether that's due to a mistake (which are common) or because they've done something wrong. Even if the director loses his or her job, they've got options, they've got assets and savings (unless they are really stupid), they've got contacts.

I know quite a few company directors, senior execs, doctors and so on - and they all have stressful jobs. But they all largely enjoy those jobs and are under less stress than someone who has four cleaning jobs and struggles to get to the end of the month without taking out a payday loan.

I don't really like to hear people talking about their money or how hard they work, because I think it's self-important and self-involved. I avoid people like this, which is difficult in London.

I think people use online boards as an escape valve, and feel free to discuss this in a way they wouldn't dream in real life (one hopes, anyway).

Anyone who thinks there is not a huge amount of luck that goes into success is deluded. This is not to say that extremely successful people don't work hard, or "make their own luck". It's just that there are giant swathes of people who do work hard and "make their own luck" and it just doesn't work out.