to find it really irritating when people who earn a lot say...

[Doodledumdums]

...But I work really hard for the money I get.

Sorry, totally unimportant, but it really irritates me!

I have a few friends who earn quite a lot of money, and I don't begrudge them this at all, but I just find it really insulting when they say 'But I do work really hard for it.' I also work hard! I feel like it implies that I don't! Okay, I am on maternity leave at the moment, so am not actually at work, (although i'd say that to some extent, looking after a baby is harder than my actual job anyway!) but when I am working, I am usually in the office by 8am, and often don't leave until 7pm, and I earn literally a fraction of what some of my friends earn. That is fine, I knew that when I got in to my chosen industry, but it doesn't mean that I don't work as hard as they do or deserve more!

They don't need to be defensive about it at all! It is totally fine that they earn what they do, I just don't understand why they can't be a bit more gracious about it and say something like 'Yes, I am lucky that I have a job I love which pays well.'

Oh I don't know, maybe I am being unreasonable and ultra-sensitive. I am sure they don't mean to imply that I don't work hard, but it just feels like that sometimes. Totally a first world issue!

P.S- I have self esteem and anxiety issues...which is possibly why I find this upsetting!

[DolomitesDonkey]

I do kind of get where you're coming from.

But, if you find looking after a baby harder than your actual job you do undermine yourself somewhat there.

[kungfupannda]

What are the conversations which lead to these defensive comments?

If they're just coming out with it amidst a whole load of bragging about how much they have, I can see why you'd be getting fed up.

But if these comments are in response to things that you are saying like your example of "oh you're so lucky to go there on holiday", then you might need to have a think about whether you're commenting too often on their salaries/situations. If every time something like holidays/houses/cars are mentioned, you make some comment about how lucky they are, or compare your own situation, your friends might find themselves becoming defensive.

[Arisbottle]

This seems to be my fourth luck thread. My DH earns a very good wage, yes he has worked hard, although lots have worked harder and earn less but it was luck that turned that hard work into cold hard cash and success.

I used to earn a very good wage, I know earn a decent wage, again I work quite hard, although as a teacher I spent 12 weeks doing absolutely nothing, but again I am lucky that my hard work has turned into success .

Hard work and luck are needed.

[MadeOfStarDust]

Everything is comparative though - apparently I am lucky to be SAHM - I worked all hours in a crappy on-call IT job for 15 years -to earn the money that let me "be lucky"..

hubby earns good money in a civil service job with a good pension - apparently he is lucky according to his brother - who had all the same chances but chose not to go to uni, chose to travel round the world, chose not to save money etc etc.... sometimes people do make sacrifices early on (and work bloody hard for their money) in order to reap the "luck" later....

[Madamecastafiore]

Here we go again.

Just because people say they work hard they are not implying that others don't.

I think it's a lot sadder that this country has become a place where people feel they have to justify their success.

[MrsMelons]

I am a bit on the fence with this. If someone is implying that a lower paid earner does not work hard by saying that then YANBU however if they are responding to comments around how lucky they are to earn a lot then this is generally a response given as higher earners get fed up of hearing it.

I have a particular friend who constantly says how lucky we are, we are not mega earners at all but DH and i earn similar amounts so have a good household income. We are in a field that takes a lot to qualify in and pays well, it is hard work and not everyone could do it as the exams are very academic amd have a low pass rate.

I don't think we are lucky, we have made good decisions and have worked hard. DH does a lot of evening work also.

I don't feel bad about what I earn as I chose the type of job I wanted as did this particular friend but the difference is hers took 9 months of a NVQ3 to qualify in and mine took 6 years of professional qualifications.

We both love our jobs but I do resent her comments so may get defensive with her.

I do not kid myself that hard work = high salary but I think we have to realise that different jobs pay different salaries and that is life!

[propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS]

Generally speaking, highly paid people are usually highly skilled and perform roles that the average person would not be capable of.
Anyone could turn their hand to being a cleaner. Not everyone has the brain to become a top surgeon or lawyer. It is simple supply and demand. The highly intelligent command higher pay because they are in short supply. I really struggle to see why people can't accept this.

[MrsMelons]

Madeofstardust - I agree, DH and I bought properties young when our mates were out clubbing and holidaying in Ibiza. When we met we combined our houses. Apparently that is 'lucky' as is losing a parent young to get a bit of inheritance. We have been through redundancies etc also but people forget that.

We work bloody hard and always have done but that is not to say higher or lower earners than us work harder/less hard than us.

[MrsMelons]

Property - I think you have hit the nail on the head there.

On MN once, an OP suggested that everyone should earn similar salaries to make it fair - no chance -I want that brain surgeon to be paid shed loads of ever operating on me or my family!!!

[Doodledumdums]

Dolomites I more mean in terms of having to get up three times a night, not being able to get food for myself easily during the day, and not being able to go to the toilet without taking LO with me etc! Which were not issues I was faced with while I was working!

I think that the definition of 'hard work' depends on the person in question. Ostensibly it may appear that a person working in a shop doesn't work as hard as a company director, but what if the shop worker has MH issues which make working an extremely big challenge? Or has learning difficulties? (I am in no way suggesting that you must have MH or learning difficulties to work in a shop by the way!) I just think that hard work is not necessarily dictated by your level of responsibility, there are a lot of other factors that come into play.

I also agree with other posters who have said that good high paying jobs are a combination of luck and hard work, and I think you have to have both. If you believe that both are not necessary, then you are certainly implying that other people who have lower paid/level jobs don't work as hard as you do,
otherwise the implication is that they would be
where you are.

Obviously I am not suggesting that everyone works as hard as each other, of course they don't! It goes without saying that a lot of people in well paid high level jobs work extremely hard, but that does not mean that there are not a lot of people in lower paid
jobs who also work extremely hard.

[edam]

property - that's a very simplistic idea. So how do you explain City types earning shedloads then? They are clearly not super-intelligent. Look at the crisis we are all paying for. Look how rich Fred Goodwin is!

Every time someone runs that experiment with a merchant banker/stockbroker/fund manager picking investments against a child and a monkey, either the child or monkey wins.

Yeah, doctors tend to be reasonably bright, but I've worked with enough of them to know they aren't all Einsteins. Some are bright, some are really clever, some are thick in particular ways - a doc may be good at maths or assessing clinical evidence but have sod-all people skills. Is emotional intelligence not a form of intelligence?

And there are plenty of bright writers and vicars and barristers working in criminal legal aid who aren't that well paid. As well as bright cleaners and hairdressers and whatever.

[propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS]

For whatever reason though Edam, the examples you give clearly have "something" that sets them apart from others. The doctors had an ability to study hard for many years. Plus a level of emotional detachment that I would not be capable of. I have a lovely friend who is a consultant in oncology (paediatric). I could not do that job for all the money in the world. I truly could not cope with that level of tragedy day in, day out. Not many could. I don't begrudge her one penny of her big salary.
The banking types you refer to handle stress and risk in a way that most could not.
Of course not all highly paid people have special qualities or are unusual but the majority are. That is how remuneration works. If the average person can do the job then the pay will be average too.

[MrsMelons]

Edam - this is then where the hard work and long hours come in to it I guess. I am not willing to work all the hours of the day to earn more. It is also partially about choice, some very clever people may not have the drive to have a high paid job or simply may not want to. My SIL left a £40k a year finance job to become a beauty therpist earning peanuts.

My friend is a doctor and was definitely not the most intelligent in our group but she had to work extra hard to qualify, she also had to work part time as had no financial support. She is a brilliant doctor. Most of the people she qualified with breezed through their exams as were very intelligent and had parents who could afford to pay for accommodation etc.

[Trills]

People who say that luck has nothing to do with them being in a good situation (work-wise or otherwise) are either stupid, naive, or extremely unimaginative.

[Ashoething]

I dislike the implication that people who aren't on mega-bucks are just not working hard enough. MY dh earns 45 grand as a lawyer. He never works less than a 15 hour day but has not had pay rise in 5 years and with the cuts to legal aid is never likely to earn much more.

Is he really just not working hard enough?

[MrsBungle]

Op, I agree. I earn probably 10 x or more what my mum earned when she was bringing up my brother and I on her own. She worked extremely hard in low paid jobs. She's work all day when we were at school in a factory - a physical job. Pick us up from school and take us to clean the local library (which I loved!). She worked loads of hours and very hard just to put food on the table.

I have 2 degrees and got an ok job which pays quite well. I don't believe I work anything like as hard as she did although i have a lot more responsibility.

What annoys me more than this, though, is when David Cameron says "people who work hard, save and do the right thing". My mum had no chance of saving. Lots of people with very low incomes have zero chance if saving. Doesn't mean they don't work hard or do the right thing.

[Pagwatch]

I can actually understand the impulse to say one what defensively 'I work hard for what we have' because I have met several people who based their entire conversations around "well it's alright for you..."

I am staggeringly fortunate, not least because I am able to support a disabled child when many many other parents find their finances destroyed by a disability.

But I still recall with irritation a parade of people who have suggested that I was born with a silver spoon, have no concept of struggle and remain aloof from any hurt, pain or distress because I have money.

I have twice resorted to justifying myself (although I have regretted it since) and it was along the lines of "we didn't win the bloody lottery. I didn't inherit. Our lives are not a piece of cake." which I think is sometimes what 'I work hard' is all about.

And yes to those who said that only on mumsnet does 'I worked hard for this' translate into 'you don't

But even bigger yes to 'never discuss money . It's crass'

[morethanpotatoprints]

Trills, I think it is far more unimaginative to suggest luck exists as some sort of bonus for random people or situations they may find themselves in. I think I'd rather think that a good position in life has come from hard work, good financial management, building relationships etc.

Lottery is luck, roll of a die is luck, winning at Bingo. It is something that is out of control of the people involved.

I think its a cop out for many, rather than saying hey we cocked up with that, or didn't manage that correctly etc they say Oh well its bad luck. because they don't learn from this they carry on and continue with "bad luck"

[daisychain01]

My personal rule has always been never EVER discuss my salary with anyone, especially not at work. It is wholly unhelpful, invariably creating discontent, comparisons that defy logic (it is remarkably difficult to truly remunerate like for like in every case especially where in my place of work there is always an element of personal contribution, individual expertise and complexity of different projects in that heady mix!) and feelings of injustice. I couldnt care less what other people earn and I want to enjoy the interactions with people, uncoloured by resentment and envy. As for discussions with friends, I know what each of my friends does for a living and with that comes some implied knowledge about what they might earn, but They are my friends so It has nothing to do with anything and it never comes up in conversation and I would never want to ask them, that is really embarrassing and uncomfortable.

My biggest bugbear is that ghastly question about how much is your house worth. Give me strength! What does it have to do with anything? Then if you do tell people, it just gives further opportunity for discussion and analysis, so I prefer not to 'go there'.

Funnily enough, it means I am not aware of ever offending anyone's sensibilities - hopefully there is a connection!

People are more important than what they are 'worth', or having a price label placed on them.

[Back2Two]

Not a serious post, but....My eyes have been opened by watching The Apprentice (this series, I've never seen it before)

These "city types" and "entrepreneurs" are a whole breed apart from me and my peer group. Yet, I'm amazed and fascinated to see that the amazing skill sets they appear to need to succeed are just really simple arguing bullying negotiating skills, being able to barter as "buying" skills.....saying they can "project manage" which means being able to delegate.....
Oh, and walking on vertiginous heels whilst having a head of hair that makes you look like one of those funny troll dolls from years ago!

They will all earn more than me (I'm a qualified health professional). I bet they don't have to buy there own tea bags for work either. Still, I just don't belong in that world.

[Pagwatch]

Yy Trills
There is always luck.
I grew up really poor and ad a shit education but I was luck to have a decent mind and a father who made me use it reading. I also broke up with a guy just as I was trying to get a job and the misery of that break up sent me to the City just as a company decided they wanted to hire a couple of Alevel educated young women into a predominately male environment.
There were a hundred more moments of luck, good choices and better than expected results that brought me to a fairly comfortable lifestyle.

Even my sons disability came into play. My dh was so miserable and so driven that his grief let him hide in work for about 6 years - his 'hard work' was actually just a by product of misery. Nevertheless, luck.

[Pagwatch]

Back2Two

Please don't make the mistake of thinking anyone in the City is anything like the apprentice. It's a ridiculous tv show with candidates diliberately chosen from the preposterous and the deluded.

I worked in the city for 16 years and still visit regularly.
I have never met anyone like any of those ridiculous people. Well one. A bloke called Nigel in about 1986.

[Arisbottle]

But does working hard to earn your money make you a nicer person?

I really don't care of someone thinks we inherited our money or we earned it and I don't really care about others.

If someone is a decent person they are that regardless of how much money they have and how they earned that money, obviously not including those who exploit others.

[Back2Two]

But yes, "hard work" and "hard work" can be two complelety different things anyway.

Hard,physical exhausting slog which may be brain numbingly challenging at times (boredom and repetition with little financial reward) working long hours

Hard...challenging work calling on your intelliegence, sharp judgment, skills, being able to make difficult speedy decisions, the buck stopping with you, dealing with lots of money...dealing with people's lives....

[OctopusPete8]

I hate people in general who say 'I've worked hard for what I've got' I've come across a few.

It's just incredible arrogance to think you work harder than anyone else. or deserve a good salary more than anyone else.