Is it right to make a woman feel unclean?

[camel1]

I was saying 'thank you' to a male colleague and touched his upper arm as a reinforcement of that thanks. He recoiled in disgust, his body language, his facial expression and his yelp surprised me so much that I apologised profusely. The incident happened in front of many children, as I am a teacher at a school. And within a minute he had shook hands with a male colleague. Whether it was his intention or not, I felt that he felt I was unclean. I was/am greatly upset by this. I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa. However, I have lived in many different countries and cultures, and I adhered to their cultural rules and would never have reacted in such an offensive way. What do you think?

I do enjoy these threads, watching politically correct 'liberals' work themselves up with processing the cognitive dissonance of being tolerant of other cultures, where said cultures display outrageous intolerant bigotry

Yes, I find that too ...

But to be serious for a thought or two: it is the biggest challenge of true liberalism to balance and negotiate between competing tolerances and freedoms.

For me, the base line is that women are human beings.

So any religious observance of any religion which demonstrates that the practices, ideologies & beliefs of the religion regard women as less than fully human is trumped by the baseline that women are fully human.

Theodora: I think you're doing the right thing. I think that should happen in this country too. We have, or aspire to, a culture of equality between men and women. We also have a culture of being polite and not upsetting people. That should be acknowledged and respected.

It's the ridiculous belief that women are unclean, which is what this springs from, according to the OP.

Just read this boringness-and thanks for patronising me. Lived in India, Africa, America and the ME and I guess I should defer to a provincial middle aged woman's opinion rather than the actual worlds order

I don't think that is 'ridiculous' though, I think it is deeply unpleasant and disturbing.

What?! Blimey that's a bit aggressive. Think you're the only person that ever lived abroad in a radically different culture and tried to acknowledge and respect it? Think again.

sorry now saw reply and so sorry for being defensive.

oh mwah mwah no problem I think it sounds like you do manage things very sensitively and that isn't being patronising honestly

There is no cognitive dissonance in not wanting unsolicited touching, regardless of the reason.

But this isn't about some people not wanting to be touched anyway - that's twisting this into something different in order to defend a view of women that's completely indefensible.

Can't believe women are happy to defend this view of women, really can't. Is it the classic, most feminists=left-wing, left-wing=sensitive to other cultures, sensitivity=tolerance of anti-feminist views.

Surely if the OP's colleague disliked physical contact he would have reacted the same way to the offered handshake ie recoiled?

The OP surmised that this was why he reacted how he did. We don't know that it is true.

What we know is that she touched him. He didn't want to be touched by her and reacted strongly to the encounter. His reasons do not matter. Unsolicited touching is unsolicited touching.

Yes, it really sounds like he just had a massive phobia about being touched on his arm and she totally shocked him with an unprovoked assault so recoiled, looked horrified and waved dismissively when she apologised. Yes it really sounds exactly like that. Not like he was rude and bumptious like some old fashioned duffer from the 30s in spats huffing and puffing because a woman darkened the door of his golf club.

He yelped - presumably she heard that. He recoiled - presumably she saw that. I would imagine that if he had that much of a problem with any form of physical contact (as has been suggested on this thread) then the offer of a handshake would have elicited the same response - in much the same way as a large spider would elicit the same reaction as a small spider to someone who strongly disliked spiders.

in someone

No belief system that encourages men to regard women as ' unclean' or 'second class' is right or controls how women dress or act should be defended regardless if its dressed up as a religious belief or not.

It's just wrong.

I'm a team manager and once I interviewed a chap who, very politely, refused to shake hands at the start of the interview. I was a bit taken aback, but thought ok, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs - shouldn't make any difference, so long as he can do the job.

In the slight confusion I don't think he heard my job title.

during the interview he directed his questions and answers to my tech lead (a man) who was there to take notes and as a second opinion.. Even when I was the one asking the questions.

Then he asked how many women where on the team.

Me: Only one I'm afraid,
Him (smiling): well, it's not really an area for women, is it? What level is she?
my tech lead: Manager.
Him (laughing): No, seriously.
Me: I'm the manager.
Him (not smiling) : Oh. I thought you where from HR.

Yeah. THAT was the bit that didn't go down well.

Agree thebody. I'm saddened that more women within these religions don't challenge this thinking.

Crumbledwalnuts, are you saying that it's ok to touch someone who doesn't want to be touched by you, as long as their objection has a religious or cultural source?

Again - if he was so distressed by physical contact, why did he not recoil and yelp from the offer of a handshake?

I expect because they are too conditioned or too scared SirChenjin.

You cry religious intolerance or ethnic beliefs and any criticism is effectively stifled.

Very true thebody

I'm saying it's perfectly normal to pat someone on the arm and if you have some kind of phobia about it, that is the unusual thing. If you yelp and recoil there is something wrong with you. It's not normal. If you yelp and recoil because your culture means you think women are unclean then you're being rude, and you bloody well should learn they aren't.

Well sirchenjin, firstly as a pp mentioned we only have op's version of events which may well have been spiced up a little for a good ol Aibu debate, who knows

Secondly, there are numerous reasons why he may have reacted the way he did, (if he did) but was fine with the bloke whose hand he shook - he may not like OP, perhaps she does have hygiene problems - well we dont know her personally do we! He may not like unexpected touching, or lastly he may not touch women due to religious reasons and can I please point out again, it is muslim women too, who can refuse to touch men - the men being unclean or otherwise so lets not throw a pity party for those poor oppressive women shall we. I am one of them, and I can assure you I am not under my DH's or anyone's thumb!