Is it right to make a woman feel unclean?

[camel1]

I was saying 'thank you' to a male colleague and touched his upper arm as a reinforcement of that thanks. He recoiled in disgust, his body language, his facial expression and his yelp surprised me so much that I apologised profusely. The incident happened in front of many children, as I am a teacher at a school. And within a minute he had shook hands with a male colleague. Whether it was his intention or not, I felt that he felt I was unclean. I was/am greatly upset by this. I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa. However, I have lived in many different countries and cultures, and I adhered to their cultural rules and would never have reacted in such an offensive way. What do you think?

What I see zzzz is a lot of attempts to normalise misogynistic behaviour.

the body, and I think Dione.
The op says in her op about his cultural or religious beliefs about touching women.

Thebody, I did mention in my first post that his reaction was a bit OTT, but hardly anything to get into a flap about. Also I really have no idea if the op is lying or not no, but is a first time poster.. Plus I have a nagging feeling it could well be a wind up, or slightly exaggerated at the least.

I was being sarcastic about the men being unclean comment after reading the few comments on here, women considered unclean by presumably muslim or whatever rubbish it was. Perhaps I should have put it in inverted commas, sorry for the confusion. So let me be clear - men and women neither of them are considered 'unclean' unless they lack serious hygiene.

Interesting to see people asserting a right to never be touched without there expresses mission. You do realize this right doesn't actually exist don't you? Ordinary contact without causing or intending any sort of harm is not battery. There is no right to have people not touch you as they squash into the carriage on the tube or push past you in the street. While we have a right (occasionally restricted) to bodily autonomy and freedom from assault or battery, we do not have a right to simply not be touched.

Yes Emmeline, and I fear these attempts to make a reaction like this seem perfectly normal. It is NOT normal, and it is simply unacceptable in the workplace or a regular social situation, if it's as a result of religious beliefs.

Zzz thanks for the link, sad but interesting.

It's not normal and its wrong imo.

There express mission = their expresses permission

I wonder how many of the people who think this is fine would think it okay for people to object to a touch on the basis of any other physical characteristic than genitals?

If someone in work environment objected to someones touch on the grounds of the colour of their skin, a disability or even sexuality they'd be out of a job the same day.

It's not acceptable, it shouldn't be any more acceptable to us than a bikini is in Saudi Arabia.

Pretty bloody awful that some woman feels like crap because a bloke with what were almost certainly antiquated misogynistic beliefs over-reacted in a really unpleasant way simply because she's a woman - and there are women here defending that. Like segregation at university talks - how DARE this country go back to that, how dare it be taken there.

emmeline neither is there a right to go around touching people and have every body be really pleased about it

Am thinking that many women on this thread would not feel remotely comfortable in a lot of countries of the world.
Yet the op says she has lived in different countries and cultures

Sorry, only just come back to this... sirChenjin and crumbled to mix your posts up from about 19:20, may I try to explain? I'm scared of spiders. If one lands on me, say I'm asleep, wake up and see one on my shoulder, I yelp, jump up and end up shaking for half an hour, having a cigarette and changing the bed. This is for a spider the size of a 2p. I have however, been able to use a glass and piece of card to remove a spider whose legs struggled to fit under a pint pot. I wince and recoil if someone pats my shoulder, grabs my hand or strokes my arm. But I am perfectly able to shake someone's hand. It's all about preparation. (Even if that's only a fraction of a second in the case of a handshake or 20 minutes building up to spider removal.) it's also, as I said before, about choice. I choose to remove the spider, I choose to shake someone's hand. I don't choose to wake up next to a spider (I can think of a million things/people I'd rather wake up next to!!) and I don't choose to have someone invade my personal space without giving two hoots about how I feel about it. And that's not religious/cultural or sexist, it's just me. And if you don't like it, I'm sorry but that's tough.

Sorry, posted too soon...
One of us will end up upset, and in all honesty I care more about my feelings than (typically) a strangers.
I hope I haven't come across arsey, I am just trying to explain.

crumbled OP has not said that this man is disrespectful or unprofessional towards her or other women. He doesn't want to be touched. The reason he doesn't want to be touched is irrelevant. It's not open for debate is it.

Men do not have to allow women to touch them unconditionally to prove they aren't misogynists. Imagine the scenario the other way round

It is distinctly disrespectful and unprofessional to yelp and recoil to a touch on the upper arm and then to wave the woman away when she tries to apologise. It's rude.

And with regard to cheek kissing/hugs goodbye/even a grope of the boobs, if that's the culture where I happen to be, or even the culture of the person I'm with, i know about it in advance and so can be ready for it!!

I've LIVED in other cultures yammy and when I'm there I respect the normal way to go about things. I didn't yelp and recoil about the place.

Incidentally, my mother was an anti-apartheid campaigner and has often pointed out how much it really fucking grinds her gears that people will salivate over Nelson Mandela and bang on about what a hero he is and how terrible apartheid was but absolutely ignore the fact that there are countries all over the world where women have almost zero civil rights - far less than the blacks in South Africa had in the 90s but this is completely acceptable to them.

Crumbled, do you have a religion?

Are you going to try to justify this on the grounds of religion? If you are, don't bother on my behalf.

So you disregard peoples' religious beliefs?

The op said "I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa".
So the religious/cultural belief thing is relevant.

Yes, it's disgusting that people think they can get away with mysogynistic behaviour on the grounds of religion. Don't you agree?

Yes - if they disregard sexual equality, I absolutely do disregard them with relish.

If a person is in another country, then I think that the person should observe the culture, and vice versa.

As regards religion, I think people should be respectful. But I dont expect a person of one religion to be in a anothe country , and swap religions.