To feel a little sorry for the 7 children benefits Mum.

[MilgramsLittleHelper]

www.itv.com/daybreak/hottopics/benefits-mum/

Is just seems like another bit of benefit bashing to me.

I know she shouldn't have had children she couldn't afford, but what hope of improving her lot???

The right to reproduce shouldn't be means tested

No, but it is (or should be) a responsibility of adults to match their reproduction to a not overly optimistic consideration of their means.

Shit happens. Unpredictable curve balls are part of life. Almost nobody get away with no "life rain" at all. If people plan their family on the basis that they can excpet some drizzle to feature in their future, perhaps the system would be able to provide a wrap around, dignified degree of support for those who get the short straw and get hit by a ruddy great decades long thunderstorm.

I cannot get the links to open. But why arent the Fathers supporting their children financially?

I find Carpe Vinum's post interesting. Why is Britain doing so badly on the unplanned/ ill-thought-out pregnancy front? How come Italians (and the French, the Dutch, the Scandinavians, you name it) manage to avoid this on such a massive scale without resorting to mass-scale abortion? The only Western country that seems to be doing worse than the UK is the US.

Are domestic abuse figures higher? Is relative poverty and deprivation more pronounced? Low self esteem among young women? Is there a streak of irrationality and happy-go-lucky attitude to creating yet another life that other western countries manage to avoid? I'm really curious.

Then we need to put a hell of a lot more effort into equipping vulnerable members of society to make responsible adult decisions

No. That is expensive and probably asks more than those people can give.

Focus on the "cusp dwellers", who are neither particularly vulnerable nor incaperble of making responsible adult decsions as long as the system motivates them towards responsibility by making it in their own interests to be so.

All cpuntries have vulnerable adutls who are ill equpped to make "good decsions", if the more caperble layers of the population are moved away from abdicating responsibility, then who exactly the vulnerable are becomes more clear, and slack needs to be cut for them for the sake of their children if nothing else.

They have contributory based benefits systems. If you dont work for too many years, you dont get any payment.

Biscuits Part of it is that all of the countries you mention have what I suggested earlier, sensible, adult discussions about sex and its consequences. In all the countries you mentioned (other than Italy, where I have to admit, I don't know when) sex education starts in reception.

William. Obviously it is sensible to do what one can to minimise risk, but a) sometimes that just isn't possible, and more importantly b) it is not something that we should legislate for. At that point it becomes Eugenics.
I shall ignore the other, extraordinarily rude comment.

The woman this thread is about has far less than me. She still needs to sort herself out though. Ms and me average income should not have to fund her. She's totally irresponsible and attention seeking.

Ms and mr

Oh dear God. So, Faster what should she do about her children with disabilities?

Oh, and do you have seven children?

They have contributory based benefits systems. If you dont work for too many years, you dont get any payment.

But doesn't that leave a substantial proportion of vulnerable people with absolutely nothing whatsoever? And what happens when these people have children? The nr of children living in poverty seems to be higher in the UK than in most other Western countries, bar the US. So what do the countries with contributory based benefits systems do? Take those children into care?

Again, genuinely curious.
Interesting post about 'cusp dwellers' btw.

I know that generally, in Italy people can rely more on support from their extended families if they need it than in the UK. Not sure about the other countries.

When will people realise that we live in an expensive material world and having children is expensive and they need money.

It's not a case of means testing who should and shouldn't reproduce but it's a reality- don't have children if you can't afford to look after them- it is not the tax payers job to fund lifestyle choices for others. Certainly don't go on to have 3,4,5,6 or 7 children that you can't afford to keep.

With regards to the father of these children supporting them, whose to say he is working? If they aren't thrn they don't have to contribute more than £5 a week.

As I said in an earlier post if a cap on the number of children that the state will support was bought in then it may make people think twice. It can't be done retrospectively but it should be introduced.

Dd I dont want seven children - I think its egotistical for someone who can afford 7 to have them. And I don't think its best for the children.

she can claim dla for the disabilities, get sterilised, stop her on/off relationship and focus on her dcs. And budget. And stop putting her family in the news.

William

I was brought up in a time before tax credits, but welfare existed. Parents didn't think about finances when planning on having a child. You just managed the best you could, if you weren't entitled to welfare.
Roll on to tax credits and people on low income are subsidised because employers don't pay a fair wage. There should be no financial assessment required before having children imo.

Are domestic abuse figures higher? Doubt it for here. I think you have better escape systems and more social sanction for abuse than exists here.

Is relative poverty and deprivation more pronounced? Italy is poorer. The south in particular suffers from degrees of deprivation that are comparable to deprivation in the UK, if not far worse, what with the Mafia fucking everything up harder. Health and education aren't as high quality either.

Low self esteem among young women? Young people tend not to have babies here cos ....it's just not affordable for them, so not sure to what degree lack of self esteem might be an issue caused by early and under supported parentedhood or the cause of early and under supoorted parenthood.

Interesting question that one. Will have to ponder.

I know that generally, in Italy people can rely more on support from their extended families if they need it than in the UK

They can becuase they have to. And becuase of that, by and large, they are invested on not risking placing an extrodinary burden of help on people they value. So cautious concpetion is the norm.

That sort of works at a community level too.

Yes, she could, but why should she get sterilised, she may be able to work in a year or so, in a position to have other children.
So, she gets more than you, does it matter, she gets more than me too, and I have four people with disabilities in this house. I'm not complaining.
Oh, and before anyone starts the government is not supporting me.

Beer of course some people experience barriers and life is not perfect, things happen. Birth control doesn't work. Jobs are lost. Hence the reason for a safety net.

Things don't work out for a lot of people and EVERYONE has problems and setbacks.

But posters on here seem to be criticizing the basic tenets of sound judgement or forward planning especially in relation to the biggest responsiblity you'll have in your life, which is having children. You can't plan for everything in life but you can try.

I am actually astounded by the posters on MN who have lots of kids which were wanted and planned for but they are struggling financially - not due to a change in circumstance but living within the SAME circumnstances they were in when they planned for and had the children. That's what I mean by people being dreamy and romantic - wanting a big family but not thinking through how they'll cope. But that's for another thread...