Soft play incident - WIBU?!

[Sianilaa]

I took my three year old to a soft play place the other day. He was playing nicely most of the time but then I noticed he pushed a child out of the way to get on a slide first. I went straight over, took him aside and explained pushing/pushing in wasn't nice and he was to wait his turn. If he couldn't wait his turn and I saw him do it again, he would go in time out. He started kicking off because I'd removed him from the slide and was losing the plot - he ended up lashing out at me.

I picked him up, took him to a quiet bench away from the play area, against the back wall and explained hitting was unacceptable and he would do 3 mins time out. If he repeated it, we would go home. I stood about 1 metre away from him and turned my back while he did his time out. Close to him so he knew I was there but not giving him any attention. I was calm but firm - Supernanny would have been proud!

He was sobbing hard though, but stayed put. About a minute later a woman came rushing over to me, pushed past me and picked my son up and started cuddling/rocking him! She kept saying to him, "shhh, there there. It's not your fault you have such a cruel, abusive mummy. It's ok now."

I was so shocked, I just stood there with my mouth hanging open, catching flies for about a minute. When I got a grip, I told her to put him down and stop interfering when I was calmly disciplining my own child. This woman had a smaller child with her, plus a female partner. She put him down and went back to her partner loudly talking about how awful and cruel and damaging I was to my son. I lost my temper, and went over and said how dare she touch my son and interfere when I was trying to teach him hitting and pushing was wrong and that surely time out was better than screaming/swearing/smacking him?! I walked away shaking like a leaf.

Her partner came over a few minutes later and apologised, saying she had very strong views on discipline and ignorance and that she didn't agree with what I had done but that she shouldn't have done it or been so rude. At which point I said I wasn't ignorant in any way, and that they should be careful who they say these things to as next time they might get thumped by someone or ejected for inappropriately touching a child.

What would you have done?! Is time out cruel?! I didn't smack him or shout at him, but I did have to wrestle with him slightly to get him over to the time out spot I chose.

It's still making my blood boil just thinking about it.

Sianilla, I don't think it is abusive but in your original OP you asked if it was 'cruel'. In response to that question, it makes me feel uncomfortable when my SIL does it to my three year old nephew. It is the rejection of such a young child that makes me feel uncomfortable I suppose. Like I said, I did it a couple of times when my DS was nearly 3 as he was very physical with other children then. However, i was doing it because i thought that was the expectation of other people, that I was seen to be doing something about it. I only did it a few times as I hated it.

The thing with 'Time out' is that on paper it reads as a fairly light punishment but in reality some people get very physical when placing the child somewhere, sometimes they get aggressive with it and verbalise that aggression and that kind of scenario seems very wrong to me.

The thing with 'Time out' is that on paper it reads as a fairly light punishment but in reality some people get very physical when placing the child somewhere, sometimes they get aggressive with it and verbalise that aggression and that kind of scenario seems very wrong to me.

I agree with that, but I don't think it means time out in itself is wrong, just that the way it's being done is aggressive which is wrong. I wonder if those people might have smacked their kids 20 years ago so in that sense maybe it's an improvement?

I do get what you mean with regards to rejecting a young child but I'm not sure that every child sees it as rejecting them. I don't see ignoring and rejecting as the same thing though - to me, rejection is a much more long term process and is about rejecting the whole child. It's not a two minute thing in response to a given behaviour.

There are times when DD gets into a frame of mind where ignoring her is the only thing possible. If you try and talk to her she gets increasingly rude and argumentative. It doesn't happen a lot and mostly she can be reasoned with but it does happen and time out works a treat by not setting that situation up. Reasoning is in fact that thing that can sometimes escalate it all, as she reacts rudely and then you end up punishing her for that as well as the original offence. Far better to do a minute or two time out, away from it all, to let her calm down and then you never get to the stage where she is being openly defiant.
Sometimes she puts herself in time out and if you try to approach her to comfort her she gets into a real state. I find those hardest to deal with as all you want to do is hug her but if you try before she's ready you make it all a million times worse. I suspect many in the gentle parenting camp would label me abusive if they saw us at that moment but it's really the best thing.

Larry, thanks, I will read those links when I get a minute. The reason I asked is because I genuinely find it difficult to believe that cases of MH problems have increased because children aren't being punished enough. Personally I know the opposite to be true in my group of family/friends. Those who were not subjected to physical punishment & humiliation have had far fewer issues. I will get some info for you with regards to the decrease in violence in society... but may take a little while as have been invaded by the mil.

On side note though, setting boundaries in the home does not have to = punishment. I'm a firm believer in boundaries, just not punishment for enforcing them.

I don't think time out is abusive but I think it sends the wrong message... those big overwhelming emotions that you can't manage are also too overwhelming for me too, so I will stonewall you until you display behaviour I like. I get a little when parents make declarations about their kids feelings I.e. I do xyz and my child is perfectly happy. How does anyone really know how their child feels? How do you know your child doesn't feel rejected/shamed/humiliated inside?

I don't believe punishments work in the long run, I think they condition rather than teach right from wrong. Surly a child should be taught, if you push it will hurt the other person. Not, if you push you will be in time out, how does that teach empathy? And If time out worked so well, why did the op get clomped after she threatened the punishment?

I haven't been able to read everything so sorry if this has been said:

I believe, in the beginning, time outs were time away from the trigger situation, time to calm down etc. But people have made them more hardcore and they have become time out from mummy and from help dealing with the strong emotions you can't deal with.

I don't think time outs are cruel but i do think its cruel to ignore a child who is emotionally distressed as a punishment.

I think its a quick, easy way to change a childs behaviour but i think you end up with children who no longer care about being punished, so there is no deterrent.
I hope that by removing my child from the situation and staying with them, talking to them about why what happened is not acceptable they will hear that we are a team through her mistakes but if her behaviour hurts people or damages objects, we have to go home.

But i do think the woman was unreasonable. i've witnessed a friend give a cruel time out and i wish i had the courage to say something but I think a quiet suggestion to the mum to google 'what's wrong with time outs' would have been enough.

On the decline in human violence

Another article on the book

Also check out 'parenting for a peaceful world' by Robin Grille, lots of data & stats there.

Empathy in children & how to foster it; empathy being a key factor in reducing human violence.

I think what you did was totally right and it's a shame more people don't act like you - we may have better behaved children if they did.

Yanbu at all - that woman was a twat and I bet her kids are precocious nightmares!

Did someone upthread advocate sticking to your small child like glue in a soft play so that you can steer them gently away from mischief? Possibly do-able with one child but not more than one, surely? It isn't possible to physically helicopter more than one child.

becsparkel I imagine many parents using time out also explain to the child why pushing etc is not kind. The two strategies are not mutually exclusive. Whenever I put mine into time out (when they were little, I don't need to now) I would always say from the outset why I was doing it, which incorporated an explanation of what was unpleasant about the behaviour.

I would not visit places where I can't stay reasonably close to more than one child. My 13 year old is fine on her own, but my 11 year old needs help navigating social situations when there are lots of other kids there (he still gets a bit too boisterous in large groups), and my 4 and 2 year old also need me closeby. It is totally doable with multiple children to remain close, no I don't get to chat and have coffee, but my kids need me and I enjoy being with them.

Totally agree with everything Goldenbear and becsparkel said. I second the recommendation of Parenting for a Peaceful World. I believe we are on a evolutionary curve of progression when it comes to parenting. My mum always says how she feels in hindsight she was cruel to smack us when we were young, but that was what all parents did then and no-one questioned it. I believe it will be the same with Time-Out and other behaviour modification techniques (that were originally designed for dogs by the way) in the future. In a few decades, just like smacking is now, the vast majority will see Time-Out for what it is - cruel, unnecessary, and causing a breakdown in the connection between parent and child.

The original OP asked if it was 'abusive'. What constitutes child-abuse historically speaking depends on the age and culture you are living in. Smacking in Sweden has been considered abusive for decades, however, eleswhere it is only being seen as abusive in the last few years I think (depending on where you live). Social services obviously respond to the social norms of the time so I would not report you because I would be laughed at. I think in the future, though, it would be something that will be deemed socially unacceptable in most countries around the world. I live in Australia, and Time-Out is not allowed in child-care centres, family day-care, or school because it is considered emotionally damaging to the child. However, smacking is still legal for parents so go figure?!

"I don't believe punishments work in the long run, I think they condition rather than teach right from wrong. Surly a child should be taught, if you push it will hurt the other person. Not, if you push you will be in time out, how does that teach empathy? And If time out worked so well, why did the op get clomped after she threatened the punishment?"

I think that you need both. I think the technical term is "paired aversives" (as I learned from another MNer on another thread). You "punish" to ensure short term compliance, essential to the healthy functioning of a family unit. You simultaneously explain and educate to ensure long term compliance for the right reasons. That is surely the same as the adult World. I don't think anyone would want a society or workplace without consequences. Surely everyone wants a workplace bully to be subject to disciplinary procedure at the same time as a word with his/her boss?

I will tell my girls when they're playing up to sit on the sofa until they've calmed down. I don't time it or ignore them, although I don't join in when they shout. only takes about a mine before they give me a hug and ask if they can go back now. if we're out they would be told to sit with the adults until they've calmed down.

my 4 year old ended up in a high chair yesterday after climbing and being told twice it was coming. she then threw her sister's colouring on the floor and pinched her a arm (one of those moments where you can't laugh, the 2yo cried out and clutched her arm, we asked what had happened and she said "smack me" followed by 4yo "no , this" as she grabs her own arm) so we moved their chairs apart. less than a minute later she said sorry to her sister and asked to sit by her so she could give her a hug and kiss.

I can see the issue with a child being ignored for time or cio etc but it's not abuse and I'd rather someone ignored for a few seconds than shout and swear.