Soft play incident - WIBU?!

[Sianilaa]

I took my three year old to a soft play place the other day. He was playing nicely most of the time but then I noticed he pushed a child out of the way to get on a slide first. I went straight over, took him aside and explained pushing/pushing in wasn't nice and he was to wait his turn. If he couldn't wait his turn and I saw him do it again, he would go in time out. He started kicking off because I'd removed him from the slide and was losing the plot - he ended up lashing out at me.

I picked him up, took him to a quiet bench away from the play area, against the back wall and explained hitting was unacceptable and he would do 3 mins time out. If he repeated it, we would go home. I stood about 1 metre away from him and turned my back while he did his time out. Close to him so he knew I was there but not giving him any attention. I was calm but firm - Supernanny would have been proud!

He was sobbing hard though, but stayed put. About a minute later a woman came rushing over to me, pushed past me and picked my son up and started cuddling/rocking him! She kept saying to him, "shhh, there there. It's not your fault you have such a cruel, abusive mummy. It's ok now."

I was so shocked, I just stood there with my mouth hanging open, catching flies for about a minute. When I got a grip, I told her to put him down and stop interfering when I was calmly disciplining my own child. This woman had a smaller child with her, plus a female partner. She put him down and went back to her partner loudly talking about how awful and cruel and damaging I was to my son. I lost my temper, and went over and said how dare she touch my son and interfere when I was trying to teach him hitting and pushing was wrong and that surely time out was better than screaming/swearing/smacking him?! I walked away shaking like a leaf.

Her partner came over a few minutes later and apologised, saying she had very strong views on discipline and ignorance and that she didn't agree with what I had done but that she shouldn't have done it or been so rude. At which point I said I wasn't ignorant in any way, and that they should be careful who they say these things to as next time they might get thumped by someone or ejected for inappropriately touching a child.

What would you have done?! Is time out cruel?! I didn't smack him or shout at him, but I did have to wrestle with him slightly to get him over to the time out spot I chose.

It's still making my blood boil just thinking about it.

Luckymamaoffour "If my child hit another child at a soft play centre like OP I would consider it my fault for not being 'right there' and steering the play in another direction BEFORE they got to that point"

Are you saying you follow your child round at softplay? The far corners that only kids can get to? The massive bumpy slides?
I can only imagine how exhausting that must be. The point of softplay is independent self directed physical play, not helicoptering over them!

Babyhmummy01 - "My parents used smacking when required when I was a child and I am a perfectly well adjusted adult. I am not a violent person."

I think you have contradicted yourself... hitting a child with the intention of causing pain or distress is in fact violent, whether you like it or not. And you think smacking is acceptable because you were smacked as a child. I've yet to meet anyone who wasn't hit as a child but uses smacking as a discipline technique. Yet there are plenty of parents who weren't smacked as kids and successfully parent without hitting.

Back to time out - the op asked whether time out was cruel and what we would do instead. Those of us getting a hard time for being anti time out & judgemental are simply replying to her post, not being 'smug' or declaring ourselves perfect parents. Who is ever a perfect parent anyway? We all screw up from time to time.

People are also assuming that those of us who practice a more gentle parenting style are letting out kids bash the crap out of other kids and are generally responsible for the moral decline of society. It may come as a shock but you can set firm boundaries without the use of punishment.

In this case, it was the time out (or threat of) that escalated the situation. If the op had told her DS that pushing was not acceptable/nice and left it there, he probably wouldn't have lashed out. Instead, she threatened him. How do you feel when you are threatened? A bit angry perhaps? And as we know a 3 year old cannot regulate their feelings like an adult.

Larry - please can you provide evidence that cases of people with mental health problems are on the increase? Isn't it possible that mental health problems are more openly discussed now and there is less of a taboo around seeking help for a MH problem? Also, it's not just about diagnosed MH. Society in general has become far less violent than previous generations...Less cases of domestic violence, child abuse, less violent wars being fought. Using empathy with children, instead of force or pain, teaches them to use empathy - kids model behaviour right?

Btw - I'm not excusing the ops DS for hitting. I agree that hitting is not acceptable but I am trying to see it from the point of prevention... that the hitting may not have happened in the first place, had timeout not been threatened.

I don't think I am being smug simply because I strive to be a gentle, respectful parent to my kids. I do get it wrong sometimes, but I always apologise and try and do better next time. I don't think I have 'easy' kids either. Wonderful, challenging, spirited, yes, but most certainly not 'easy. must admit am confused by the age gap comments. I have a 2,4,11 and 13 yr old. With the older two, before I knew better, I did following conventional parenting methods and used Time-out and punishments. My 11 yr old son was diagnosed with all sorts including ADHD and ODD at 5 but I just didn't buy it. We removed him and his siblings from school, and started following gentle parenting practices. So, no I most definitely do not have placid, easy-going kids.

With regards the comment about following a child around a soft play centre, I very much believe leaving three year olds to play unassisted is a recipe for disaster. It may be fun for the mums but kids of all ages need mum closeby to help them navigate difficult social situations. Best not to wait until things go sour, especially when they are so little.

Still snorting at Time Out being Emotionally Abusive.

Good lord. What is this world coming to? The mind boggles. Some of these posts have led me to wondering, who are the parents and who are the children?

Parents are supposed to parent. With this comes love, guidance, encouragement, discipline, boundaries & moral support. I believe in a balance - this equips our children to cope in the real world - which sadly is not a gentle place. I can't abide this softly, softly approach if I am honest.

I would have lost my f*%ing marbles. No kidding. My blood boils on your behalf.

As for the time-out. You asked him to stop and he hit you - seems quite a reasonable response to give a time out. Hardly abusive to the high-and-mightly who get their knickers in a knot about it. Nobody elses business at the very least.

MrRected You can't abide a gentle approach with children because the world isn't gentle? I wonder why?

MyShoofly Why is it nobody's business how parents treat their children? Do parents 'own' their kids? Shouldn't we all look out for children and if we feel they aren't being treated justly to point it out?

I don't personally feel comfortable with time out and can't see that turning your back on a heavily sobbing little boy is going to teach him anything at all. I'm part way through reading Unconditional Parenting which has been really interesting and has reinforced my gut feel about it. But YANBU to be annoyed with the woman - if someone else touched my child like that I'd be furious.

when you have a child who will not behave and whom you cannot reasonably trust to play fairly well within age limits it controls everything you do. You want to do nice things with them but they end up being ruined by bad/dangerous behavior.

People thnk I am strict as I am very firm that if I ask them to STOP scooting/walking/cycling that they do so. I trust them as much as you can ever trust a child that when I say stop, they stop dead. Now this means that i can take 3 swimming at once - I know if I am doing ones arm bands I can tell the others to stay and they will. They actually get much more freedom and fun when I know they can listen, behave and respect boundaries.

OP you did the right thing. When you tell him no pushing he needs to learn to accept that. If he then hits you, you are right that s a time out.

It might be that a few times of being very strict and consistant will remind him that what you say goes and then you won't have to tell him off so much at all. I would rather that than constantly being on edge.

what a nutter

I'm not sure I'd have done time out, I do get them to sit down until they've calmed down sometimes but I'm not sure it's quite the same, however, if a child is not being hit, verbally abused etc I'd leave it alone. I'd probably tackle an adult I saw doing that and I'd definitely take on someone who touched my child! I'm on crutches but I still lunged at the woman who pushed my daughter over. I'm a peaceful person until it comes to my kids!

Luckymamaoffour "With the older two, before I knew better I did following conventional parenting methods and used Time-out and punishments."

Good gracious.

luckymamaoffour Tue 11-Jun-13 21:44:50
"If my child hit another child at a soft play centre like OP I would consider it my fault for not being 'right there' and steering the play in another direction BEFORE they got to that point. If I did miss it, then I would make a fuss of the hurt child, scoop up my child and firmly tell them what they did hurts (no shouting or yelling though) , and then take them off to another area to play. I don't see this as neglectful, I see this as very hands-on and I would never allow my children to hurt either their siblings or other children."

Ah, so you would scoop a child up and perhaps even make them leave? Using physical methods in other words...

In that case, can you explain to me why the OP is being flamed simply for taking her child to one side to ask him not to push? To me, it seems she was doing exactly what you say you would do. And what I would do too.

Hullygully Tue 11-Jun-13 11:08:55
"yy cory, of course.

I used to beat my ds and dbs relentlessly, but always out of sight and with the promise of retribution if they told...still feel bad today.

I wish a parent had made me understand why it was wrong, but parents didn't talk to children in those far off days."

Sorry, I don't get this post.

All I was saying was, my parents, who were into the non-punitive approach, still found they sometimes had to physically lift me away from my little brother or take me by the arm and lead me away because otherwise I would have carried on walloping him. And that this, though it was undeniably a physical method, was not harsh or abusive. And not that far from the approach of the OP either.

I wouldn't remove my child, kicking and screaming, tell them off, and then make them sit and cry whilst I turned around ignoring them. What I would do (if it has got to that point, which it really shouldn't) is tell them 'be gentle' firmly, then distract them and play something fun somewhere else. If I HAD to scoop I would do it in a playful way.

I think people commonly misunderstand gentle parenting and think parents never say 'NO' or 'STOP'. We try to avoid that but sometimes you have to.

Dontsshme Why 'Good Gracious'? I am talking about myself here too. I do feel I know better now and my family is all the better for it.

I did exactly what the OP did many, many times when my two eldest were small. Nobody said anything to me then at all, and I so wish they had. I too would have been very defensive, and very pissed off at the time. Probably would have thought they were a loon, but I am sure once I had calmed down it would have made me start questioning my approach earlier than I did. And that, I would have been very grateful for.

"Larry - please can you provide evidence that cases of people with mental health problems are on the increase? Isn't it possible that mental health problems are more openly discussed now and there is less of a taboo around seeking help for a MH problem? Also, it's not just about diagnosed MH. Society in general has become far less violent than previous generations...Less cases of domestic violence, child abuse, less violent wars being fought. Using empathy with children, instead of force or pain, teaches them to use empathy - kids model behaviour right?"

How about you provide some evidence for any of the above? Less wars? I don't remember any major wars when I was a child. In the last few years we have had many many wars with millions being killed. Less domestic violence, child abuse? Evidence please.

Here are a couple of links which at least suggest that mental health problems are rising in the UK. As you said, though, it is hard to prove definitively. You will note on the second link that lack of boundaries at home is cited as a problem

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/neilobrien1/100186974/the-remarkable-rise-of-mental-illness-in-britain/

www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/number_schoolchildren_with_mental_health_problems_rising_survey_says.aspx

"Staff believe lack of boundaries at home is the main reason for students behaving badly (cited by 79%), followed by behavioural problems (69%), emotional problems (68%), wanting attention from other students (64%), a lack of positive role models at home (61%) and family breakdowns (61%). Also significant were low self-esteem (53%) and not valuing education (51%), and a third (34%) cited mental health problems."

Lack of boundaries at home = precisely.

Being scooped up in a playful way and taken off somewhere more fun when you hit another child, perhaps? I fail to see how this teaches the child that what they've done is wrong, despite the firm "be gentle". Distraction is the approach I used when my children were babies, and they didn't understand what they'd done. A three year old needs to learn not to push and hit. Yes id maybe distract them depending on what they'd done, but in ops case only when they'd been taken aside and told that they shouldn't be pushing or hurting others.

Ps a child who has been brought up to get away with murder at home stands out like a sore thumb in primary school- they are the ones who think it's ok to talk to an adult however they'd like because they are allowed to "express themselves" at home and are never called up on the correct way to speak to adults. They are the ones who will think it's acceptable to push someone or hit them "because he had the toy I wanted". They just haven't learnt right from wrong! I'll never forget my hippy gentle parenting friend letting her daughter deck another child "because she's just expressing herself and defending her territory" or some such nonsense.

When these children start secondary school is when the real problems begin.

Why is it always 'My hippy friend has these unruly, primary aged kids because she dared to not use imported American discipline techniques'? In reality, do people go around labelling themselves as 'tiger mum' or 'attachment parent' as was suggested up thread. I've never heard someone define themselves in this way. I'm not a Hippy, in fact I read the 'Economist' but I don't use 'Time out' to discipline my DC and my 6 year old is NOT terrorising the school with his unruliness. In fact, the more challenging children are often partnered with him, I suspect often in the hope my DS's good sense will rub off a bit.

"I wouldn't remove my child, kicking and screaming, tell them off, and then make them sit and cry whilst I turned around ignoring them."

Luckymama, where in my OP does it say I removed him from the slide kicking and screaming?!

Where does it say I told him off?

I gently lifted him off the steps of the slide, took him to one side and gently explained we don't push and he should say sorry.

He got a time out for then losing it and whacking me. The consequence was he lost his turn for hurting a child and pushing into the queue. He didn't like it. So what?! Every time he sees me sitting in a chair he decides he wants when there are 5 other identical chairs around the table and starts so bing hysterically, I'm not going to get up for him. When he screams and cries and sobs when I say "no sweets today" - should I buy them for him? No! The immediate crying was for being removed from the slide when he wanted to go down it, not because I threatened a time out. The time out was for whacking me which isn't acceptable.

I'm not about to teach my child that by turning on the crocodile tears, he can get his own way. I don't make eye contact during time out as he thinks he can keep negotiating or shouting. We always talk it through with a big cuddle after and he calms down very quickly. I don't expect anyone else to use the same discipline I do, but for violence I will not tolerate it so time out it is. He is removed primarily for the safety of other children and then for his own safety as I'm sure he would equally hate being pushed back. You might not like it but it's a world away from abuse IMO.

Oh and before you start, I know my child and can easily tell when he is angry/sad/being a bit melodramatic. He was not distressed, it was his "I didn't get my own way" cry. And I would have comforted him straight away had he been genuinely distressed. Nobody else, especially that woman, knows me or my son. What our home life is like, what his temperament or cries are like. So based on a snapshot I can't believe my behaviour is described as abusive, I think it's ridiculous.

And nobody has answered my question - if time out is genuinely abusive, would you report someone to social services if you saw it? And if not, why not?

I think that the children who are genuinely being emotionally abused and ritually humiliated like a boy that I went to school with that was forced to wear a sign saying 'don't talk to me, I'm stupid' would love a brief timeout enforced by a mother who loved him. Some perspective is required here, and to the poster who blames receiving time outs as a child for all issues in her adult relationships, WTAF GAFG, I'm sorry I can't remember who you are but this thread has gone on so long. Sianlaa you know what kind of parent you are, go with the vast majority who feel this woman was wrong

blimey!

what a long thread about time out!

i had no idea it was so hated!

my 12 yo has dyspraxia and sometimes becomes so overwhelmed that time out actually calms him.

shoot me.

cory - just meant that

1. I agree of course physical violence must be stopped, by removing child from scene etc etc

1. On another note, used ot beat my sibs (and unremoved as unseen) but wish (on occasion was seen etc) had been taught not to by teaching of empathy and real understanding of why not.

becsparkel : In this case, it was the time out (or threat of) that escalated the situation. If the op had told her DS that pushing was not acceptable/nice and left it there, he probably wouldn't have lashed out. Instead, she threatened him. How do you feel when you are threatened? A bit angry perhaps? And as we know a 3 year old cannot regulate their feelings like an adult.

I think this is the bit in the whole argument I disagree with. I think the OP offered up a clear consequence, not a threat. I think this is an important thing to do: If you do X, then Y will happen. You certainly can threaten, but that to me says more about how you say it rather than what is said. And it is what we all live with all the time (in principle - it does assume you get caught!). If you speed, you will get a fine. If you are consistently late at work, you will get a warning. In fact, most places I have worked in have a crystal clear discipline system precisely so you do know exactly what is required of you and the consequences of not doing what you need to do.

I don't think the OP did anything different to this.

The child pushes in front of someone else. You can't leave them where they are and simply say "Don't do that, it's not kind" because they still get their turn first. They learn that all that happens is a reprimand from Mum, but they can carry on as they were. So she removed him for this chat, but also made sure he knew that doing it again would mean something a bit more long lasting. He got angry at being moved away I would think, rather than feeling threatened at the prospect of time out (as people have said, 3 year olds live in the moment), and he hit out. Doesn't mean you shouldn't move him away - what about the child he pushed in front of? Does he lose his turn because you think moving your own child away would escalate the situation?

I do use time out with DD (age 4) and have been doing so since she was 2. I don't use it all the time, or exclusively - it depends on what she's done, where we are, whether it's something she's done loads and knows full well is wrong or whether it's the first ever time she's done it, and the way it happens (does she do something in a rush, forgetting she's not supposed to, or does she look at me and deliberately do it?). Sometimes a quick "You're not supposed to do that are you?" with raised eyebrows works. Sometimes even joking about it works. Sometimes only a very forceful "if you do that again, I will ..." works.
I don't follow any 'school' of parenting. I am gentle when the situation needs it and that's all that's required, but I will certainly up the ante if she is being defiant and time out is simply part of that toolkit. It's not a Gina Ford approach for whoever made that rather snide comment. From what I've heard she's far too rigid for my liking. It's my approach, which I have worked out by watching DD and working out (and sometimes getting it wrong) what works and what doesn't.

Why do we need to follow a 'school of thought' anyway? Surely, we judge our own children according to their personality, try something, if it works great, if it doesn't, we do something else. The idea of any kind of 'one size fits all' parenting is daft, whether it's "Time out whatever the child and whatever the circumstances" or "Only a gentle reminder is needed on any child ever". Both have their place across the spectrum of families. Some families may find that one approach or the other works for them, some may find one approach works for one child and another for another child, and some may even, like me, find that you change your approach depending on the circumstances. The only thing I stick rigidly to is that when I say something I mean it. DD knows that if I say time out is the next step, then that is what will happen. Do people really, honestly, always use what a book says to guide their every interaction with their child? (Genuine question - it's come out sarcastic but I can't word it in a way that doesn't). What happens if the child doesn't react the way the book says? Or does following a book closely mean that you don't ever face that? I'm interested -I've never read a parenting book as I am happy with the way DD is turning out so never felt the need to.