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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think homeopaths really just make money out of the gullible?

999 replies

WidowWadman · 08/06/2013 20:59

A remedy made from diluted bits of the Berlin Wall - seriously, that's surely just a test to find out how far they can push it, isn't?

OP posts:
BOF · 10/06/2013 23:14

Zovirax must be the absolute dog's bollocks then, Imagine Grin.

CoteDAzur · 10/06/2013 23:14

"In France people are much more open to homeopathy than in the UK, and I know of two French-trained doctors in the small town where I live who will prescribe homeopathic remedies for minor problems if the patient so wishes"

I'm in France, too, and have had this conversation with many a pharmacist. They have all said that it is of course rubbish but as long as people want to buy it, they will happily make money selling it.

Nobody who has actually studied biology and chemistry, let alone medicine, can actually believe in homeopathy which is completely at odds with all of those disciplines. When doctors prescribe it, it is prescribed as placebo.

And why not? It doesn't cost much and sugar pills can't hurt you.

(Because it is a lie, that's why not. That's my two Euro centimes anyway.)

BOF · 10/06/2013 23:16

"The odd typo is excusable - your embarrassing and spectacular ignorance is not."

Hair hair, Ellie Wink

Crumbledwalnuts · 10/06/2013 23:40

Ellie and Solidgoldbrass: as you seem to have descended beyond the point I would stop talking to people in real life, I'll have to leave it there with you and we can agree to disagree.

BOF:
"The placebo effect is indeed fascinating. We know that this explains why many people feel that homeopathy works for them."

Firstly, people don't feel it works - it does actually work. How? Is it the placebo effects alone? Is there an element of holistic attention? Is there something else?

"It doesn't mean that homeopathy has some actually-existing physical or chemical curative quality, or that there is some magic involved that science has not yet discovered."

That is not what I'm suggesting at all. Straw man. That's the easy part.

"A little knowledge may indeed, as the cliché goes, be a dangerous thing. But it's certainly less dangerous than eschewing all rationality and surrendering to ascientific nonsense"

That's moot: there's no question about the damage done by "all rationality" and scientific "tried and tested" treatments.

"and believing that this is actually characteristic of superior insight."

It might be nice to think that because you know there are no active chemicals inside a homeopathic pill you therefore know everything there is to know about homeopathy. With many people - including, for example, the researchers into placebo you mentioned, it doesn't stop there.

I think the NHS harnesses the power of homeopathy very well. It's carried out in a clinical environment, with approved people, access to medical records, and (I assume) training and guidelines (as it's under the NHS) to ensure that recommendations aren't given that interfere with vital conventional treatment.

Oh dear BOF, I've just seen that you agreed with Ellie's very rude comment. Well I've typed all this out now, so we'll just have to agree to disagree as well.

Crumbledwalnuts · 10/06/2013 23:43

By the way Imagine: perhaps you could have a conversation with Trills who believes conventional treatment pharmaceutical treatment has no placebo effect.

Crumbledwalnuts · 10/06/2013 23:48

And so, with that, YABU op. A lot of people know exactly what they're getting and engage in a willing suspension of disbelief. And for many others - perhaps the more you believe, the greater the benefit.

EllieArroway · 10/06/2013 23:51

Can I ask why you have continually ignored my question to you about your own personal access to modern medicine?

You genuinely seem to think that the world would be better off without it (demonstrating historical as well as scientific ignorance to a quite breathtaking degree), so please tell me that you won't be calling a paramedic if you have a heart attack - or wasting the time of ImagineJL and her colleagues when you've got a severe attack of the shits, or an embarrassing boil on your bottom. Please reassure me on this point, because I'd truly hate to think of you as a hypocrite.

Oh - and it's OK. SGB and I are quite used to people not wanting to talk to us.....but we carry on regardless usually Wink

BOF · 10/06/2013 23:54

"Is there an element of holistic attention?"

Yes, of course. Which contributes to the placebo effect. Nobody denies this- in fact a few people have specifically brought this up.

I'm sorry if you feel offended by my being a bit rude about you (and I admit that I have been): I apologise. I am just frustrated by your solid conviction in what I consider to be a load of old hooey.

EllieArroway · 10/06/2013 23:54

Crumbled is disappointed in you, BOF - she expected better. You've let her down, you've let the thread down....but most of all, you've let yourself down :(

Crumbledwalnuts · 11/06/2013 00:04

Ellie: please refer to my response above.

Bof :): apology accepted. Don't worry, it's not the offence, it's just that the desire to talk to someone evaporates under certain circumstances.

I think you mistake my "solid conviction". I certainly have a conviction that homeopathy helps a lot of people: I certainly have a conviction that it contains no pharmaceutical active ingredients: I certainly have a conviction that the best way to harness whatever power it does have is under controlled conditions in the NHS: and I certainly have a conviction that people who dismiss it are also prepared to dismiss as paltry the terrible problems caused to many people as insignificant. And I certainly have the conviction that that would be hypocrisy.

Crumbledwalnuts · 11/06/2013 00:06

Should read: "I certainly have a conviction that people who dismiss it are also prepared to dismiss as paltry the terrible problems caused to many people by conventional treatment.

BOF · 11/06/2013 00:16

Hmm, I disagree with you there. I've been involved, for example, in a campaign to make sure that the awful events in Staffordshire are never repeated. That doesn't mean that I reject all the benefits of science and modern medicine though.

Crumbledwalnuts · 11/06/2013 00:24

Bof, neither do I. And well done to you on Stafford. But too many people have used phrases like "sometimes modern medicine goes wrong" or "not perfect" - when talking about the toll of conventional treatment - compared to the much more aggressive and hate-filled language directed at homeopathy. It's clear which they consider to be more significant (wrongly) as an agent of harm.

BOF · 11/06/2013 00:32

I think that's because the subject of the thread is homeopathy, to be fair. If the topic was medical disasters, you'd find plenty of posts expressing passionate opposition.

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief · 11/06/2013 01:03

crumbled that's because whilst conventional medicine can harm, the balance is still in its favour if you look at how many serious diseases have been eradicated over the last century or so. Homeopathy doesn't have that track record. It's all about feeling better because someone had a nice chat to you and listened to your ailments, which is great, but then we should be honest and look into how we can incorporate that into treatment plans, rather than pretending that homeopathy works as it is supposed to. I actually dont have a problem with people wanting to go down that route because they are sick of being in and out of the GP surgery in 8 mins flat or not being able to get an appointment for 10 wks. I have a problem with the pseudo-science that homeopathic advocates like to lecture me with over dinner. If they just said "it works because people believe it does- isn't the mind a fascinating thing?" I'd wholly agree with them.

GiraffesAndButterflies · 11/06/2013 06:19

I could sit here all night and post links of how "modern", "conventional" "western" medicine, whatever you like to call it, and conventional treatment, have harmed people, and damaged people, and killed people

Conventional medicine gets the high-risk jobs and is used a lot more widely, so you're proving nothing here. When homeopathy is being used comparably and getting better results then you might have a point. Except it never will be, because not enough people are stupid enough or ill-informed enough to start treating serious conditions that way.

I'm also not sure what relevance your points about the placebo effect have. Homeopathic doctors charge people money for treatments that are 100% proven not to do what they claim. Magic water would defy the laws of science. It is simply bollocks. Just because, coincidentally, some people may be helped through the placebo effect does not lend any credence to homeopathy. You could argue that it means we should find a way to better dispense placebos to harness this. But it does not make it ok to charge people money for lies, potentially life-threatening advice and tap water.

GiraffesAndButterflies · 11/06/2013 06:23

Hmm, x-post because I forgot to refresh the thread last night..

Curlew · 11/06/2013 06:26

Of course more people die when being treated by conventional medicine than when being treated by homeopathy! That's because they have things wrong with them that have the potential to kill them- rather than backache, bloating and biliousness.

GiraffesAndButterflies · 11/06/2013 06:29

But too many people have used phrases like "sometimes modern medicine goes wrong" or "not perfect" - when talking about the toll of conventional treatment - compared to the much more aggressive and hate-filled language directed at homeopathy. It's clear which they consider to be more significant (wrongly) as an agent of harm.

Hmm So if we all agree that chemo sucks even if it cures you, that anti-depressants can be damaging to mental health, that childbirth sometimes results in incontinence and it sucks that we still don't have perfect contraception, then by your standards are we allowed to say that homeopathic "doctors" are liars and charlatans?

Gracelo · 11/06/2013 06:41

I don't understand what you suggest we do with regard to medicine crumble. Are you suggesting we are not using it at all because there are drugs which cause harm? That we are not using, say, antibiotics because in some people they cause bad side effects? Maybe I need to read the thread more carefully but I honestly don't understand what you suggest we do to tread life threatening illnesses for which we have drugs which cure the majority of patients but harm a handful of others.
There has been lots of work done on homeopathy and it has never resulted in any support for it. If there is more work to be done maybe the companies which profit from selling HP stuff should put the money and the work in, just as pharmaceutical companies have to show efficacy for their drugs. They are not going to do it because a. people buy HP if there is proof or not b. they fair well know that they won't be able to show it works (and then claim it lies in the "special nature" of how HP works that they can't show it), or c. if against all expectations they do show efficacy then suddenly this actually becomes proper medicine with all the regulation and licensing issues which make drugs so expenisve and their massive profit margin will shrink. There would be no good outcome for them whatsoever.

Binkybix · 11/06/2013 08:24

Crumbled - it comes back to the point you keep ignoring about net benefit from both types of treatments, not absolute harm. You say you think modern medicine has been a good thing on balance, but the the rest of your argument doesn't follows that logic.

People are not dismissing the harm that conventional medicine can do - its acknowledged, the fact it should be minimised and negligence dealt with strongly is acknowledged. It's just that a) people are not prepared to throw away the net benefits and b) people can care about more than one thing and here want to discuss homeopathy. Remember that this thread started by a treatment that uses the Berlin Wall!

I don't think anyone has denied the placebo effect (using at short hand for all the ways homeopathy could work) here. So it's about harnessing that without the fear of challenging the supposed homeopathic mechanism, and the harm that belief in that can do.

As a wider point I think it is important to challenge belief in non-evidence based thinking in this sort of context to enable progress - so the argument against challenging homeopathy isn't just about what harm that treatment may not - it's about a framework of thinking.

Binkybix · 11/06/2013 08:26

Gracelo - I'd watch out. When I asked crumble to clarify a similar question I got a rather sarcastic retort, although it's actually far from clear.

blondecat · 11/06/2013 08:36

YANBU

Gracelo · 11/06/2013 08:44

I'm battle-hardened when it comes to HP discussions binky Smile
I agree with your point about "framework of thinking" and it's a bit strange to accuse scientists of being bigoted for sticking to their scientific principals. Mind you, this is mostly happening to biologist, maybe because it's considered a soft science. Doesn't happen to physicists as far as I can tell.

scarletsalt · 11/06/2013 09:52

crumbled what the fucking fuck are you on about?!