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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think homeopaths really just make money out of the gullible?

999 replies

WidowWadman · 08/06/2013 20:59

A remedy made from diluted bits of the Berlin Wall - seriously, that's surely just a test to find out how far they can push it, isn't?

OP posts:
CalamityKate · 10/06/2013 20:30

Hahahaha chortling at LaQueen's silkenicity and plumpazons!! Grin

ToysRLuv · 10/06/2013 20:30

I remember a recent anti-ageing facial cream commercial that claimed to have used "DNA science to create a new revolutionary cream". Surely they mean biology .. Hmm

munkysea · 10/06/2013 20:32

Erm, does anyone else find it rather distasteful that this woo-merchant is selling distilled bits of the Berlin Wall? I mean, it was erected to stop people escaping a communist dictatorship in East Germany, and over a hundred people died trying to cross it.

ToysRLuv · 10/06/2013 20:38

It's probably not a real wall piece.. Whatever the case, I just find it ridiculous.

noblegiraffe · 10/06/2013 20:40

Toys confusingly there are two types of arnica, homeopathic arnica which is bobbins, and herbal arnica that might help with bruising. Hopefully the midwife meant the herbal stuff.

CalamityKate · 10/06/2013 20:59

I love the term "bobbins" but I've never used it.

I shall remedy that before the week is out.

Perseis · 10/06/2013 21:01

Kentish Did I say they deserve it anywhere? I just think it's a natural consequence, and there is only so much that can be done to force people to behave in a certain way - if you value any kind of civil liberties you have to let people be stupid if they choose to. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it enjoy the view, as they say.

EllieArroway · 10/06/2013 21:08

I have an annoying habit of posting this on virtually every woo thread - but I love it so much & it's so very apt.

LiegeAndLief · 10/06/2013 21:12

Venus, I am a scientist. I know loads of scientists. I am married to one, friends with many and work with more. I know one scientist who "believes" in homeopathy and she is a bit of a loon.

I refer you to the wonderful Tim Minchin:

Alternative medicine has, by definition, either not been proven to work or been proven to work. You know what we call alternative medicine that had been proven to work?

Medicine.

LiegeAndLief · 10/06/2013 21:12

Ha ha x post Ellie!

ToysRLuv · 10/06/2013 21:16

I don't think there are herbal Arnica pills. At least not at Boots, 3 years ago. I know there is a herbal arnica cream, but that's not what the midwife recommended.. I have absolutely no issues with herbal medicine (with the safe, approved stuff), as that is what modern medicine evolved from.

KentishWine · 10/06/2013 21:18

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post, Perseis.

Crumbledwalnuts · 10/06/2013 21:47

Homeopathy obviously helps some people, somehow, probably placebo, probably the time taken - it obviously, somehow, harnesses the power of the body to heal itself. The lack of interest in how this works is really rather depressing. The thread is almost a parody of the phrase "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". People like to think they "know" what "cures" disease (and obviously there's quite a basic mistake going on for a few people about what a cure actually is). They also like to sneer at an easy target. It's not difficult to assert there's no scientific or pharmaceutical basis for homeopathy. That's the easy part. The hard part is the next bit - and that's asking: if there's no pharmaceutical basis, and people still benefit - what is it doing, and how. Can we harness that and use it in a different way.

Some people here clearly don't even understand that someone can be cured, or a health problem cleared up, without the use of pharmaceutical products. It's very sad, and very old fashioned.

With regard to the links posted: I could sit here all night and post links of how "modern", "conventional" "western" medicine, whatever you like to call it, and conventional treatment, have harmed people, and damaged people, and killed people, many hundreds of people, thousands of people, sometimes vulnerable people (Imagine) "like children who haven't been able to make the choice for themselves, suffer needlessly." Please don't forget that many "tried and tested" treatments have ruined lives. I did post a few such links, earlier: and it wouldn't be hard (although very time-consuming) to post link after link after link. We can just take it as read that it's many, many more than homeopathy. There were also links about how immune system conditions have soared over the years.

The comments flying about, stupid, fuckwit, nonsense, supernatural (by the way Ellie it's "hear, hear") I think are rather childish and smug.

CarpeVinum · 10/06/2013 21:49

Alternative medicine has, by definition, either not been proven to work or been proven to work. You know what we call alternative medicine that had been proven to work?

PixelAteMyFace · 10/06/2013 21:50

eccentrica - I`m fully aware that warts will eventually disappear by themselves, but it seems a strange coincidence that they just happened to disappear within days of starting the homeopathic treatment - and for both boys, at the same time, not just one!

DS1 was very sceptical about the treatment as silver nitrate and liquid nitrogen (three times) had both failed. The dermatologist said that some warts just don`t respond to treatment.

I tried homeopathy as a last resort so that I could truly say Id tried everything to rid my sons of those hideous warts that were making them feel self-conscious. I didnt expect it to work, but thought Id at least try it as it wouldnt do them any harm

In France people are much more open to homeopathy than in the UK, and I know of two French-trained doctors in the small town where I live who will prescribe homeopathic remedies for minor problems if the patient so wishes. I have tried homeopathic cough syrup and found it to be as useless as any other Grin and the homeopathic sedatives to help me sleep were also a waste of money.

But if I got warts I`d give homeopathy another try...

Crumbledwalnuts · 10/06/2013 21:51

Sigh. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Crumbledwalnuts · 10/06/2013 21:51

And that was just a response to CarpeVinum. Pixel, good luck with the whole wart thing.

apostropheuse · 10/06/2013 21:53

really need to read thread titles more carefully. was a tad confused when I read it as Am I being unreasonable to think sociopaths make money out of the gullible

Speed reading isn't always a good thing. Grin

BOF · 10/06/2013 22:05

The placebo effect is indeed fascinating. We know that this explains why many people feel that homeopathy works for them. It doesn't mean that homeopathy has some actually-existing physical or chemical curative quality, or that there is some magic involved that science has not yet discovered.

A little knowledge may indeed, as the cliché goes, be a dangerous thing. But it's certainly less dangerous than eschewing all rationality and surrendering to ascientific nonsense, and believing that this is actually characteristic of superior insight.

SolidGoldBrass · 10/06/2013 22:08

Walnuts: I'm not sure what your ranting about proper medicine is based on. Is your point that some medicines' side effects harm some people who take them (while curing many others)? Is it that medical professionals sometimes make mistakes? The thing is with conventional medicine, as opposed to superstitious bullshit: conventional medicine evolves, is tested, medicines with side effects are replaced by ones with fewer side effects, more effective medicines are developed and this is all based on a process of testing, re-testing and evidence. Whereas homoeopathy is bullshit, has been proven to be bullshit (has failed every single test performed) and remains bullshit.

It's also true that a lot of ailments simply get better, after a while. If you have a bit of a tummy upset or a cold, it will get better whether or not you take conventional medicine. It will get better whether you take homeopathic remedies or not. But if you take a conventional remedy, you will probably get better a bit faster and the intensity of your symptoms will decrease a bit.

noblegiraffe · 10/06/2013 22:31

The lack of interest in how this works is really rather depressing

Who isn't interested, crumbled?

Loads of research has been done into the placebo effect, an injection is more potent than a pill and so on. Here are some interesting findings:

"Now, after 15 years of experimentation, he has succeeded in mapping many of the biochemical reactions responsible for the placebo effect, uncovering a broad repertoire of self-healing responses. Placebo-activated opioids, for example, not only relieve pain; they also modulate heart rate and respiration. The neurotransmitter dopamine, when released by placebo treatment, helps improve motor function in Parkinson's patients. Mechanisms like these can elevate mood, sharpen cognitive ability, alleviate digestive disorders, relieve insomnia, and limit the secretion of stress-related hormones like insulin and cortisol.

In one study, Benedetti found that Alzheimer's patients with impaired cognitive function get less pain relief from analgesic drugs than normal volunteers do. Using advanced methods of EEG analysis, he discovered that the connections between the patients' prefrontal lobes and their opioid systems had been damaged. Healthy volunteers feel the benefit of medication plus a placebo boost. Patients who are unable to formulate ideas about the future because of cortical deficits, however, feel only the effect of the drug itself. The experiment suggests that because Alzheimer's patients don't get the benefits of anticipating the treatment, they require higher doses of painkillers to experience normal levels of relief.

Benedetti often uses the phrase "placebo response" instead of placebo effect. By definition, inert pills have no effect, but under the right conditions they can act as a catalyst for what he calls the body's "endogenous health care system." Like any other internal network, the placebo response has limits. It can ease the discomfort of chemotherapy, but it won't stop the growth of tumors. It also works in reverse to produce the placebo's evil twin, the nocebo effect. For example, men taking a commonly prescribed prostate drug who were informed that the medication may cause sexual dysfunction were twice as likely to become impotent.

Further research by Benedetti and others showed that the promise of treatment activates areas of the brain involved in weighing the significance of events and the seriousness of threats. "If a fire alarm goes off and you see smoke, you know something bad is going to happen and you get ready to escape," explains Tor Wager, a neuroscientist at Columbia University. "Expectations about pain and pain relief work in a similar way. Placebo treatments tap into this system and orchestrate the responses in your brain and body accordingly."

In other words, one way that placebo aids recovery is by hacking the mind's ability to predict the future. We are constantly parsing the reactions of those around us?such as the tone a doctor uses to deliver a diagnosis?to generate more-accurate estimations of our fate. One of the most powerful placebogenic triggers is watching someone else experience the benefits of an alleged drug. Researchers call these social aspects of medicine the therapeutic ritual."

Long article here
www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo_effect?currentPage=all

CalamityKate · 10/06/2013 22:52

It's "Alternative medicine has, by definition, either not been proven to work or been proven not to work".

Sorry, pedantic but omitting the second "not" changes the whole thing.

ShadowStorm · 10/06/2013 22:53

Yes, the placebo effect is indeed fascinating.

I read somewhere - can't remember where right now - that researchers had found that expensive branded paracetemol worked better as pain relief than generic cheapy unbranded paracetemol, despite them having the exact same active ingredients.

They'd put that down to the placebo effect. Something to do with people expecting expensive medicine to be more effective, so it was....

I'll have to have a look for where I read that when I get a minute.

EllieArroway · 10/06/2013 23:09

(by the way Ellie it's "hear, hear")

Who fucking cares?

The odd typo is excusable - your embarrassing and spectacular ignorance is not.

Sigh. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing But none at all is considerably worse.

As BOF says

But it's certainly less dangerous than eschewing all rationality and surrendering to ascientific nonsense, and believing that this is actually characteristic of superior insight

ImagineJL · 10/06/2013 23:12

Capsules work better than tablets, coloured capsules work best, and drug names should have a Z or an X in them to achieve maximum benefit apparently.